Some Ideas for Castlefield / Transpennine / Calder Valley

[Manutd1999]

Amidst all the talk about HS2/TRU/TfN etc, it is easy to forget that rail users won’t see any of these benefits for another 5+ years, at least…..

This got me thinking, if we started with a blank sheet of paper, what could we achieve without any major infrastructure changes? I think we could get a lot better than we do at present.

Specifically, could we get a half-hourly timetable across the entire Manchester / Transpennine / Calder Valley network? This would simplify everything and make it easier to ensure all stations get a minimum level of service.

A key enabler would be introduce slightly more skip-stopping, but run more services overall. This allows the “stoppers” to call a fewer stations, which in turn allows the “fasts” to be pathed a clock-face 15 or 3 minute intervals.

We would also need to accept some compromises. In particular, local politicians need to accept that (for now at least), not everywhere can have a direct service to the Airport.

I’ve outline a possible approach below:

Castlefield
As ever, everything starts with Castlefield……

If an achievable capacity is ~12ph, I would aim for a simple, 10ph metro-style service from the Airport through the Castlefield core. This leaves 1ph for freight and 1ph for the EMR Liverpool-Sheffield-Nottingham. ‘Metro’ trains would skip-stop on the Styal line, then all call at Piccadilly, Oxford Rd and Deansgate, and continue to:

• Bradford via the Calder Valley
• Leeds via Stalybridge and Huddersfield
• Blackpool via Bolton and Preston
• Southport via Bolton and Wigan
• Liverpool via Warrington Central

This gives central Manchester the high-frequency metro service it (arguably...) needs, whilst still ensuring most nearby towns get a half-hourly service to Castlefield and the Airport. There is also 4ph across the Ordsall Chord to Victoria, improving connections.

All metro services through Castlefield could be operated by Northern, with more suitable rolling stock (high capacity, no end doors etc.). In addition, these services are limited to journeys of ~1 hour, reducing the chance of importing delays from further afield.

Chester, North Wales, Scotland, the Lake District and York/Newcastle would all therefore lose their direct connection with the Airport. However, easy connections would be available at Victoria and there are other benefits for these destinations, as discussed below.

The Lake District and Scotland services would both be operated by TPE and terminate at Victoria, running via Bolton to share a half-hourly path. Platform capacity at Victoria is perhaps the biggest obstacle to this whole scheme, but there are a couple of potential solutions:

• Build an electrified siding east of Victoria. This should be sufficient space, but it would require a minor infrastructure upgrade.
• Run empty to Stalybridge to layover / turnaround.

Transpennine
The current TfW and Northern services to Chester would be incorporated into the TPE network through Victoria, combining with 2ph from Liverpool as part of a 4ph fast service to Leeds. This gives Chester and North Wales some compensation for losing the Castlefield/Airport link.

If the Piccadilly– Huddersfield stoppers are also increased to half-hourly, plus 2ph to the Airport, total service along the Transpennine route therefore increases to 8ph. This would stretch capacity, but I think it is possible with some skip-stopping.

I would have all of the ‘fast’ services call at Huddersfield, plus either Stalybridge or Dewsbury, to give consistent journey times to Leeds. 2ph would run along the ‘core’ Liverpool – Victoria – Leeds - York - Newcastle route, with the other 2ph running Llandudno – Chester - Victoria – Leeds, then continuing to either Hull or Redcar/Saltburn.

The 2x Piccadilly stoppers would skip-stop as needed to fit around these fast trains, perhaps serving Greenfield and Marsden only 1ph. I would also merge them with the Huddersfield – Bradford/Wakefield services, creating some useful additional links and reducing platform constraints at Huddersfield.

The 2x Airport services would run fast to Huddersfield, then semi-fast to Leeds. Between Huddersfield and Leeds, 2x Calder Valley services (see below) and 2x Airport semi-fasts would share the stops between them, again allowing skip-stopping to fit around the fast trains.

Calder Valley
Along the Calder Valley, the Airport service would act as the ‘fast’ train to Halifax and Bradford, delivering a long-promised link to Castlefield. The services from Wigan and Blackburn (6ph total) would be similar to today but with a more consistent schedule.

2ph would act as Calder Valley stoppers and would both continue to Leeds via Dewsbury. This gives Brighouse a much improved service; half-hourly to both Leeds and Manchester. The other 4ph would terminate at Rochdale (2ph), or continue to Blackburn via Todmorden (2ph), sharing the stops between Victoria and Todmorden.

Away from Manchester, the Blackpool – York service would also increase to half-hourly and be extended to Scarborough, replacing the current (hourly) TPE. I have long-thought that this service should skip Pudsey and Bramley, giving Halifax and Bradford a faster service to Leeds. Extra stoppers would serve the Halifax-Bradford-Leeds markets.

Overall, the half-hourly service pattern would look something like this:

(Liverpool) – Victoria – Hudds – Dewsbury - Leeds – (Newcastle)
(Llandudno (1ph) / Chester) – Victoria – Stalybridge - Hudds – Leeds – (Hull/Saltburn)
Airport – Castlefield – Victoria – Stalybridge – Hudds – Dewsbury – Batley – Morley – Cottingley - Leeds
Picc – Stalybridge – Mossley – Greenfield/Marsden – Slaithwaite – Hudds – Deighton - Bradford/Wakefield
(Liverpool) – Victoria – Ashton – Stalybridge

Airport – Castlefield – Victoria – Rochdale – Todmorden – Hebden - Halifax - Bradford
(Wigan) – Victoria – Rochdale – Littleborough – Todmorden – Hebden – Mytholmroyd – Sowerby – Brighouse – Mirfield – Ravensthorpe – Dewsbury - Leeds
(Kirkby (1ph) - Wigan) – Victoria – Moston – Mills Hill – Castleton - Rochdale
(Blackburn) - Victoria - Rochdale - Smithy Bridge – Littleborough – Walsden -Todmorden - (Blackburn)
(Blackpool) – Hebden–Sowerby–Halifax–Bradford – Leeds - (Scarborough)
Halifax – Low Moor – Bradford – Pudsey – Bramley – Leeds
Bradford – Pudsey – Bramley - Leeds

Airport – Castlefield – Bolton – Wigan - Southport
Airport – Castlefield – Bolton – Preston – Blackpool
Airport – Castlefield – Warrington Central - Liverpool
1ph (Liverpool) – Warrington Central - Castlefield – (Sheffield)

Victoria – Bolton - Preston - (Scotland/Barrow)


Any thoughts? Political arguments aside, could this be even remotely deliverable?

 

[Eccles1983]

So yorkshire gets most of what it already has, and to hell with West Cheshire, Halton, Warrington, st helens, North wales..... they get no benefits. They already have a service through to leeds, but now lose the most. These areas are train centric for commuters, and the loading are testament to this. Change this to Victoria and you will put people into cars.

Have fun selling that. It's deliverable but completetly unacceptable to the thousands of commuters who will now find themselves having to walk across Manchester. Forget the airport - Piccadilly and Oxford Road are the prize for the above areas.

In times where the industry is trying to get people back - this would put a sizable hole in finances for what gain?

 

[Philip]

North Wales trains used to go into Victoria in the 1980s.

The Ordsall chord just needs to be classified a failing white elephant and closed, TPE services from Leeds and the North East should terminate in either Victoria or Piccadilly, or carry onto Liverpool; I think half hourly from Standedge to each of Liverpool via Chat Moss, Victoria terminating* and Piccadilly terminating would work well. People from the North East can simply make an easy change at Piccadilly if they wish to carry onto the Airport, like the people of Sheffield and South TPE places have to do.

*Assuming the Huddersfield stopper goes back to Northern then this could be combined with an Atherton line service to improve platform capacity at Victoria.

Spare capacity through Castlefield should really be used for improving cross-Manchester connections between Crewe, Stoke, Macclesfield, Chester and Stockport towards Salford, Botlon, Chorley, Wigan and Preston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Ordsall chord just needs to be classified a failing white elephant and closed

I'd not rip it up but I absolutely would mothball it. It is negative unless and until the Oxford Road work is done and Picc P15/16 is built. If those two things don't happen, it should not be served, with TPE instead operating via Guide Bridge into Piccadilly P1/2 and not proceeding to the Airport so as not to cross the formation.

 

[Manutd1999]

So yorkshire gets most of what it already has, and to hell with West Cheshire, Halton, Warrington, st helens, North wales..... they get no benefits. They already have a service through to leeds, but now lose the most. These areas are train centric for commuters, and the loading are testament to this. Change this to Victoria and you will put people into cars.

Warrington, Widnes etc would keep a service to Castlefield via the CLC line. For Chester, my proposed TPE service to Leeds is a significant upgrade on the current Northern service via the Calder Valley, with journey time savings of ~30mins and additional links to York and the ECML.

I'm not convinced by the "anything other than Castlefield will put people into cars" argument. How many people work within walking distance of Castlefield who would not also be within walking distance of Victoria? Are they really going to go to the hassle of driving, finding parking etc, all to save a 10 minute walk? Add to that a much improved cross-Manchester service (4ph Victoria to Castlefield) and the Metrolink options, and I don't think it's a bad as people make out.

That is before you consider the potential gain in passengers who currently don't use the train but might be tempted by a more consistent half-hourly schedule.

 

[Philip]

I'd not rip it up but I absolutely would mothball it. It is negative unless and until the Oxford Road work is done and Picc P15/16 is built. If those two things don't happen, it should not be served, with TPE instead operating via Guide Bridge into Piccadilly P1/2 and not proceeding to the Airport so as not to cross the formation.

It just causes such unnecessary disruption, even with only 1tph each way currently using it; there isn't really that much need to connect Piccadilly with Victoria. The only way I feel you could justify its regular use is if it was remodelled so that it didn't join the lines from Bolton and Liverpool and instead went a different route and into a newly built terminal station somewhere behind Deansgate, close to Manchester Central and the Great Northern complex.

In relation this thread, I feel a good way forward would be to firstly join all three Atherton line services with all three Calder Valley services; Clitheroe line services continuing to Rochdale as current. The TPE from Redcar would also run into Piccadilly via Guide Bridge and terminate there, thus removing the bottleneck caused by using the chord.

Secondly, all Chat Moss services should either go to Oxford Road/Piccadilly, or to Victoria and then towards Stalybridge (ideally the latter being just the two TPE services from Liverpool and the Northern Chester terminating at Stalybridge), the Chat Moss local would run into platform 5 at Oxford Road. This would reduce crossing movements at Ordsall Lane Junction and between Salford Central and Collyhurst, improving reliability.

As for the Warrington Central-Oxford Road local, it would be a good idea to link this up with the Northern Chester via Northwich, creating connections between west Manchester and Stockport/Altrincham.

Finally, I would retain direct services between Stockport and Salford/Bolton by joining either the Northern Stoke or the Crewe local with one of the Blackpool services.

 

[Starmill]

There are only two Atherton services left.

 

[Philip]

There are only two Atherton services left.

In the normal timetable though (presumably restarting next month) there are three

 

[Bevan Price]

It just causes such unnecessary disruption, even with only 1tph each way currently using it; there isn't really that much need to connect Piccadilly with Victoria. The only way I feel you could justify its regular use is if it was remodelled so that it didn't join the lines from Bolton and Liverpool and instead went a different route and into a newly built terminal station somewhere behind Deansgate, close to Manchester Central and the Great Northern complex.

In relation this thread, I feel a good way forward would be to firstly join all three Atherton line services with all three Calder Valley services; Clitheroe line services continuing to Rochdale as current. The TPE from Redcar would also run into Piccadilly via Guide Bridge and terminate there, thus removing the bottleneck caused by using the chord.

Secondly, all Chat Moss services should either go to Oxford Road/Piccadilly, or to Victoria and then towards Stalybridge (ideally the latter being just the two TPE services from Liverpool and the Northern Chester terminating at Stalybridge), the Chat Moss local would run into platform 5 at Oxford Road. This would reduce crossing movements at Ordsall Lane Junction and between Salford Central and Collyhurst, improving reliability.

As for the Warrington Central-Oxford Road local, it would be a good idea to link this up with the Northern Chester via Northwich, creating connections between west Manchester and Stockport/Altrincham.

Finally, I would retain direct services between Stockport and Salford/Bolton by joining either the Northern Stoke or the Crewe local with one of the Blackpool services.

The Chat Moss local terminating at Oxford Road would be the worst of all possible alternatives. Apart from the Universities area, Oxford Road is poorly sited for most city centre areas. In my opinion, they should all run to Victoria -- extending to Huddersfield when/if electrification is completed. In addition, the Liverpool Lime St. - Warrington Bank Quay service should be diverted to Manchester Airport. Usage between Earlestown & Warrington is very low. Also, it would allow an improved service for Eccles, and would probably attract a lot more passengers than the current, inadequate hourly service.

Whilst the politicians will stop this happening, the most sensible solution would be for the Airport to be served by a shuttle to/from Manchester, some to Piccadilly, others as the only services via Ordsall curve to Victoria.

 

[Eccles1983]

Warrington, Widnes etc would keep a service to Castlefield via the CLC line. For Chester, my proposed TPE service to Leeds is a significant upgrade on the current Northern service via the Calder Valley, with journey time savings of ~30mins and additional links to York and the ECML.

I'm not convinced by the "anything other than Castlefield will put people into cars" argument. How many people work within walking distance of Castlefield who would not also be within walking distance of Victoria? Are they really going to go to the hassle of driving, finding parking etc, all to save a 10 minute walk? Add to that a much improved cross-Manchester service (4ph Victoria to Castlefield) and the Metrolink options, and I don't think it's a bad as people make out.

That is before you consider the potential gain in passengers who currently don't use the train but might be tempted by a more consistent half-hourly schedule.

So frodsham, helsby, runcorn all lose out. No service to the airport or pic and dumped in north manchester. The leeds service doesnt stop at any of them outside of the peak. The timings do not work if they are added in.

Chester to leeds isn't a major flow. It's a convenient through train between chester-man and man-leeds. End to end is is very sparsely used. The calder valley may as well be death valley for all the use it is. It is of no value to many using the Chester-Manchester line.

The loss of Piccadilly and oxford road would be huge.

I think you have massively oversold the gains without understanding the line or areas you are selling into the dump that is victoria. I work the trains in and out of both manchester stations on this route.

 

[Starmill]

In the normal timetable though (presumably restarting next month) there are three

The third one won't be resuming next month.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The third one won't be resuming next month.

Doesn't option B+ (or whatever it is) take it to 2 permanently?

 

[Manutd1999]

So frodsham, helsby, runcorn all lose out. No service to the airport or pic and dumped in north manchester. The leeds service doesnt stop at any of them outside of the peak. The timings do not work if they are added in.

They are being 'dumped' a 15 minute walk away, it's not like Victoria is some sort of out-of-town parkway.

All these ideas assume that the timetable would be re-cast, so in that case adding stops at Frodsham/Helsby/Runcorn would be ok.

all Chat Moss services should either go to Oxford Road/Piccadilly, or to Victoria and then towards Stalybridge

That's what I have:

2x TPE Liverpool to Leeds via Stalybridge
2x TPE Chester to Leeds via Stalybridge
2x Liverpool to Stalybridge stoppers

Keep it simple and allow for a half-hourly pattern everywhere - that would be my aim for the entire network

I feel a good way forward would be to firstly join all three Atherton line services with all three Calder Valley services

Agreed. The problem at the moment is that the services are a bit of a mess. 2 (or 3) hourly via Atherton, 2x Blackburn and 1x Chester, all merging into 2x Rochdale, 2x Leeds via Bradford, 1x Blackburn, 1x Leeds via Dewsbury. It's impossible to achieve a clock-face timetable and surely leads to lots of inefficiency. Again, an answer could be to run slightly more trains overall, but on a consistent half-hourly schedule:

2x Wigan - Atherton - Victoria - Leeds via Dewsbury
2x Wigan - Atherton - Victoria - Rochdale
2x Blackburn - Victoria - Rochdale - Blackburn
2x Airport - Victoria - Rochdale - Bradford

 

[Starmill]

Doesn't option B+ (or whatever it is) take it to 2 permanently?

The third service is being reintroduced at peak times.

 

[JonathanH]

It's impossible to achieve a clock-face timetable and surely leads to lots of inefficiency.

Those services have different calling patterns in the Calder Valley and North of Rochdale to manage journey times and allow space for the service on the Todmorden curve / Blackpool to York train so a pure clock face timetable might not be desirable in any case.

 

[adrock1976]

My quick suggestion is as follows:

Castlefield
2x Blackpool North - Airport via Bolton limited stop, calling after Salford Crescent Deansgate (for Metrolink), Oxford Road, Piccadilly, East Didsbury (for Metrolink), and Airport
2x Rochdale - Airport via Vic and Ordsall Curve, calling all stations
2x Wigan North Western (or Southport via Wigan Wallgate) - Airport via Atherton, calling all stations
2x Liverpool Lime Street - Sheffield via Earlestown Regional Express calling at limited stations to Deansgate (for Metrolink), then Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Stockport, maybe Chinley, maybe Dore & Totley, and Sheffield. 1tph to each of Cleethorpes via Scunthorpe, and Hull via Goole or Nottingham via Alfreton (if sent to Hull via Goole, then after the Hope Valley upgrades have happened, a Piccadilly trainshed - Nottingham via Dore South curve and Alfreton could be introduced, with the Leeds - Sheffield via Barnsley extended to Nottingham so as to maintain the 2tph Sheffield - Nottingham)
2x Warrington Central - Airport calling all stations. The Merseyrail Southport - Hunts Cross to be extended to Warrington Central calling all stations every 15 minutes.
1x freight train
1x vacant

Via Huddersfield
2x Liverpool Lime Street - York or Newcastle limited stop Regional Express
2x Man Pic - Huddersfield local calling Guide Bridge, then all stations
2x Leeds - Huddersfield local calling all stations
2x Man Vic or Pic - York/Newcastle or Middlesbrough/Redcar/Saltburn limited stop Regional Express
2x York - Scarborough

Via Victoria/Hebden Bridge
2x Rochdale or Blackburn via Todmorden - Airport via Vic and Ordsall Curve, calling all stations
2x Rochdale or Blackburn via Todmorden - Blackburn/Clitheroe/Hellifield via Bolton
2x Leeds - Victoria/Wigan NW via Atherton calling all stations via Bradford Interchange to Rochdale, then Man Vic limited stop to Wigan if extended there)*
2x Leeds - Victoria/Wigan NW via Atherton calling all stations via Brighouse to Rochdale, then Man Vic (limited stop to Wigan if extended there)*
2x York - Blackpool North Regional Express via Halifax calling Leeds, Bramley, New Pudsey, Bradford Interchange, Low Moor, Halifax, Hebden Bridge, Burnley Manchester Road, Rose Grove, Accrington, Blackburn, Mill Hill/Cherry Tree (1tph alternating), Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, and Blackpool North
2 Wigan NW (or Southport via Wallgate) - Stalybridge via Bolton calling all stations

I have assumed the Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston, and the Bangor (Gwynedd)/Caernarfon* to terminate at Victoria or Stalybridge.

*I have tried to avoid having diesel trains terminating in the through platforms at Victoria as it is an undercover station, hence sending the Leeds via Hebden Bridge trains to Wigan NW and the North Wales train to Stalybridge out of the way.

 

[Philip]

The Atherton line can only just handle a frequency of 3-4 trains per hour because of the signalling set up, 6 would be far too much. Ordsall chord should be either 1 per hour or nothing, anything more would cause disruption.

 

[HS2isgood]

My proposal is the following:

- 10 tph through Castlefield, and two freight paths.
- Regular, half-hourly service in all lines.
- No mixture between the north side and the south side of Manchester Victoria.

Castlefield Corridor:

- 2 tph Blackpool North to the Airport, calling at all stations to Preston, Chorley, Blackrod, Horwich, Bolton, Salford Crescent and all stops to the Airport.
- 2 tph Wigan North Western-Hazel Grove, via Bolton, all stops (except Clifton, which only would get 1 tph)
- 2 tph Liverpool Lime Street-Airport via the CLC, calling at all stations (1 tph continuing to Crewe)
- 2 tph fast Liverpool-Sheffield (one TPE for Cleethorpes and one EMR for Nottingham/Norwich), calling at Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield and whatever after Sheffield.
- 2 tph TPE via Ordsall Chord, from the Airport to Scarborough and Saltburn, calling at all stops to Victoria, then Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds and whatever.

- North side of Victoria:

There'd be a total change of the Calder Valley to a clockface timetable, where the two fasts would run via Bradford and the slows one via Bradford and the other via Dewsbury. The York-Blackpool would plug in the gap from the small stations to Bradford and its opposite path in the other half of the hour would be for freight (and East of Halifax for the Halifax-Hull)

- 2 tph Preston to Leeds, all stops to Bolton, then Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Halifax, Bradford Interchange and Leeds.
- 2 tph Blackburn-Rochdale, all stops (except the ones between Bolton and Salford Crescent).
- 2 tph Southport-Leeds, via Atherton. All stops to Victoria (except New Lane and Bescar Lane which would get 3 tpd), then Rochdale and all stops to Leeds (one via Bradford and the other via Brighouse and Dewsbury).
- 1 tph Kirkby to Rochdale via Atherton, all stops except Castleton.
- 1 tph Wigan Wallgate to Blackburn via Atherton, all stops except Castleton to Rochdale, then all stops again from Todmorden.

- South side of Victoria:

Chester would be transferred to TPE, and all of the Cumbria, Scotland and Liverpool slow via Chat Moss would run to Stalybridge. The Liverpool-Warrington BQ stopper would run in the opposite side of the hour to the stopper to Staly.

- The aforementioned 2 tph TPE via the Ordsall Chord, to Scarborough and Saltburn.

- 2 tph TPE Liverpool-Newcastle, Lea Green, Newton le Willows, Victoria, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, whatever.

- 1 tph TPE Chester-Hull, calling at Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton le Willows, Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, whatever.

- 1 tph Chester-Huddersfield, all stops except Patricroft and Ashton-under-Lyne.

- 1 tph Stalybridge-Liverpool (Chat Moss), all stops.

- 1 tph Barrow on Furness to Stalybridge, calling at all stations to Preston, Wigan NW, Victoria and Ashton-under-Lyne. (If Golborne reopened it'd call).

- 1 tph Glasgow/Edinburgh-Stalybridge, calling at Haymarket or Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Kendal North Lakes, Oxenholme Lake District, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan NW, Victoria and Ashton-under-Lyne.

There are two noticeable absences: the service from Windermere to Manchester which would get cut to Oxenholme Lake District and the North Wales to Manchester, which would be detoured via the Mid-Cheshire line, calling at Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport.

As in the shortest term, the North Wales service can't run via Mid-Cheshire (level crossings) and the Scotland service can't get to Stalybridge (lack of electrification), the TPE via Ordsall services would start at Picadilly via Guide Bridge and those two would run to the Airport. (To be changed at the earliest opportunity)

 

[adrock1976]

My proposal is the following:

- 10 tph through Castlefield, and two freight paths.
- Regular, half-hourly service in all lines.
- No mixture between the north side and the south side of Manchester Victoria.

Castlefield Corridor:

- 2 tph Blackpool North to the Airport, calling at all stations to Preston, Chorley, Blackrod, Horwich, Bolton, Salford Crescent and all stops to the Airport.
- 2 tph Wigan North Western-Hazel Grove, via Bolton, all stops (except Clifton, which only would get 1 tph)
- 2 tph Liverpool Lime Street-Airport via the CLC, calling at all stations (1 tph continuing to Crewe)
- 2 tph fast Liverpool-Sheffield (one TPE for Cleethorpes and one EMR for Nottingham/Norwich), calling at Liverpool South Parkway, Warrington Central, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Sheffield and whatever after Sheffield.
- 2 tph TPE via Ordsall Chord, from the Airport to Scarborough and Saltburn, calling at all stops to Victoria, then Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds and whatever.

- North side of Victoria:

There'd be a total change of the Calder Valley to a clockface timetable, where the two fasts would run via Bradford and the slows one via Bradford and the other via Dewsbury. The York-Blackpool would plug in the gap from the small stations to Bradford and its opposite path in the other half of the hour would be for freight (and East of Halifax for the Halifax-Hull)

- 2 tph Preston to Leeds, all stops to Bolton, then Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Rochdale, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Halifax, Bradford Interchange and Leeds.
- 2 tph Blackburn-Rochdale, all stops (except the ones between Bolton and Salford Crescent).
- 2 tph Southport-Leeds, via Atherton. All stops to Victoria (except New Lane and Bescar Lane which would get 3 tpd), then Rochdale and all stops to Leeds (one via Bradford and the other via Brighouse and Dewsbury).
- 1 tph Kirkby to Rochdale via Atherton, all stops except Castleton.
- 1 tph Wigan Wallgate to Blackburn via Atherton, all stops except Castleton to Rochdale, then all stops again from Todmorden.

- South side of Victoria:

Chester would be transferred to TPE, and all of the Cumbria, Scotland and Liverpool slow via Chat Moss would run to Stalybridge. The Liverpool-Warrington BQ stopper would run in the opposite side of the hour to the stopper to Staly.

- The aforementioned 2 tph TPE via the Ordsall Chord, to Scarborough and Saltburn.

- 2 tph TPE Liverpool-Newcastle, Lea Green, Newton le Willows, Victoria, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, whatever.

- 1 tph TPE Chester-Hull, calling at Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay, Earlestown, Newton le Willows, Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, whatever.

- 1 tph Chester-Huddersfield, all stops except Patricroft and Ashton-under-Lyne.

- 1 tph Stalybridge-Liverpool (Chat Moss), all stops.

- 1 tph Barrow on Furness to Stalybridge, calling at all stations to Preston, Wigan NW, Victoria and Ashton-under-Lyne. (If Golborne reopened it'd call).

- 1 tph Glasgow/Edinburgh-Stalybridge, calling at Haymarket or Motherwell, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Kendal North Lakes, Oxenholme Lake District, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan NW, Victoria and Ashton-under-Lyne.

There are two noticeable absences: the service from Windermere to Manchester which would get cut to Oxenholme Lake District and the North Wales to Manchester, which would be detoured via the Mid-Cheshire line, calling at Knutsford, Altrincham and Stockport.

As in the shortest term, the North Wales service can't run via Mid-Cheshire (level crossings) and the Scotland service can't get to Stalybridge (lack of electrification), the TPE via Ordsall services would start at Picadilly via Guide Bridge and those two would run to the Airport. (To be changed at the earliest opportunity)

Regarding the Chester - Hull, I would also have it call at Helsby so as to provide interchange with Merseyrail if ever extended beyond Ellesmere Port.