Some advice please.... :(

[Vlaspak]

Hello,

I am new to the forum. Today on my stupidity, i was late to the Sheffield station to catch the train for Chesterfield so i was on the train the last moment. I thought i would get a ticket from the inspector inside. The journey was Sheffield-Chesterfield with Crosscountry 11min duration. Since the train was big the inspector did not arrive so i arrived at Chesterfield with no ticket. I heard on the Speakers on the train that there is a ticket check. I thought i can explain to them what happened. When i stopped there i told to a guy, that was checking tickets, i want to pay for the ticket now please, because i did not see an inspector. He then told me please talk to the lady here. She took me a bit further and she asked for ID which i did not have only bank card and some other cards. She noted my details, name, address, NI even occupation. Then she asked me some questions. These were why i did not bought a ticket, i told her i was late, so i was willing to buy a rush ticket on board. I did not see the inspector and it did not occur to me i should search him on the train. I had my mind that i can pay on Chesterfield. I told her that, i also offered to pay there the ticket or any fine. She told me no i cant do that at the moment and her final question was if i have money to pay the ticket now and that this question is on my favour. I told her of course yes i can pay. Then she told me she would give the notes and that she doesnt know what will happen. She told me that if they come in contact with me to not ignore any calls etc and that i should buy a seasonal pass if i am using the train all the time. I panicked!!! I checked the internet and found horrible things that might happen until i found the forum here and was a bit more relaxed. What i did next was call national rail who told me that chesterfield station is operated by East Midlands but i dont know what this means. Then i called East midlands and the put me through to Revenue Department where i called with a lady who told me nothing is on the system atm and i must wait until the report is in.

Any suggestions?? Any insight? Is East Midlands like Northern to settle this or not? A friend told me that they would probably send me a fine but i dont know. This is the 1st time such thing happens to me. I never did anything like this before. I told her i did not intended to evade the fare.

 

[CheesyChips]

There's no ambiguity here, you commited a byelaw offence so you are at the mercy of CrossCountry as to whether they will pursue a prosecution or offer a settlement. The guard not coming through the train is entirely irrelevant as you already commited the offence by boarding the train.

What's certain is the fact that this will cost you. Just wait for the letter to arrive so you know what their intentions are and then you can respond accordingly. People here will advise you of how best to reply to try and avoid the prosecution route although if you read other threads you'll already know this.

I told her i did not intended to evade the fare.

...evidenced by you evading the fare?!

 

[najaB]

Any suggestions?? Any insight? Is East Midlands like Northern to settle this or not? A friend told me that they would probably send me a fine but i dont know. This is the 1st time such thing happens to me. I never did anything like this before. I told her i did not intended to evade the fare.

You boarded a train from a staffed station without a ticket. If this goes to court you will be found guilty as there are no mitigating factors - a quick check shows that there are frequent trains between the two stations so you can't even say that you would have had a long wait had you missed the train. You need to do everything you can do to avoid this going any further.

I would expect EMT to write to you in the next few weeks to get your side of the story, I would suggest that in your reply you apologise for your actions and ask if you can compensate them for the costs they have incurred dealing with the consequence of your mistake.

 

[dosxuk]

In my experience, there's quite a large number of people who "forget" to get a ticket before getting on the train in Sheffield to go to Chesterfield, with the XC being the favourite trains to catch (as opposed to the EMT services starting at Sheffield that normally have a full ticket check, or the Northern / EMT Norwich services which are short enough to check fully) for people in that situation.

If they've done a ticket block, you'll need a better reason than "I intended to pay when someone asked me for a ticket" and "I've never done this before" because a lot of people will be giving them exactly the same excuses, and it's clear to any regular travelled along there that it's certainly not the truth for many of them (I'm not saying you're one of them, just that an apology and promise won't be sufficient in this case).

 

[6Gman]

All you can do is wait for them to contact you.

 

[Vlaspak]

I offered to pay 3 times . What did she mean by saying that it is for my benefit if i have the funds to pay the ticket? The case will be handled from XC or the station operators? She did not make a note of the company i used! It is the 1st time this happens to me i hope that with a letter i can at least convince them to pay the administrative fees etc.... I was polite and provided every detail correctly. What can be the outcomes of the letter? I mean is there the possibility of just a caution or it will definetely go for fees or prosecution or is there a possibility of a fine through the post?? If XC take over the case, do they have a standard fee like northern that has the 80+ticket fee?

 

[najaB]

I offered to pay 3 times .

The correct time to pay was before you got on the train.

The case will be handled from XC or the station operators?

Since you were stopped at the station, it is more likely that it will be the station operator.

What can be the outcomes of the letter? I mean is there the possibility of just a caution or it will definetely go for fees or prosecution or is there a possibility of a fine through the post??

You cannot receive a fine via the post. The most likely thing that will happen next is you will be invited to put your case why you should not be prosecuted. The prosecutions team will consider your submission and the evidence provided by the inspector and decide what their next step will be. There are four possible outcomes:

• They may decide that there is insufficient evidence to support a prosecution, and no further action will be taken.
• They may decide that there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution and request payment of the outstanding fare only.
• They may decide that there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution, but offer to settle the matter by way of a payment - expect this to be more than £50 and less than £150.
• They may decide that there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution, and no mitigating factors that merit an administrative settlement. In this case you will be summonsed to appear in court for one of two offences:
  • A Railway Byelaws offence - if you plead or are found guilty you will have to pay a fine (plus court costs) that will likely be greater than £300 and less than £750. There would be no record of this on a DBS check.
  • A Regulation of Railways Act offence - if you plead or are found guilty you will receive a fine (probably around £500 to £750), and the conviction would be recorded on a DBS check for one year.

It is in your interest to avoid the latter outcome.

Edit: In the case that the case proceeds to prosecution, the fine and costs will both be lower if you plead guilty.

 

[Vlaspak]

Thank you very much for the information. Is there a possibility to be prosecuted and get a criminal record?? I hope not . I still dont know why it is on my benefit that i have the funds to pay the ticket, per what she told me... So i think EMT are the station operators... I hope they are lenient... This is the 1st time i get something like this...

 

[TEW]

The case will be handled from XC or the station operators? She did not make a note of the company i used!

It will be handled by whichever company employed the inspector who took your details. As this doesn't involve a Penalty Fare the train company you used doesn't matter to the person who spoke to you. TOCs can and do prosecute people for evading fares on other TOCs trains.

 

[yorkie]

Thank you very much for the information. Is there a possibility to be prosecuted and get a criminal record?? ....

Yes, see the above post by NajaB and the Prosecutions section of our Fares Guide (and if that's not enough info, see Section 8 - Legal for what is probably the most comprehensive set of information on the matter freely available anywhere)

 

[ainsworth74]

Thank you very much for the information. Is there a possibility to be prosecuted and get a criminal record?? I hope not . I still dont know why it is on my benefit that i have the funds to pay the ticket, per what she told me... So i think EMT are the station operators... I hope they are lenient... This is the 1st time i get something like this...

Yes you absolutely could get a criminal record and I believe with near 100% certainty that you will be prosecuted unless you can persuade EMT to settle the matter out of court.

I wouldn't really think about her comments that much in that the company have more than enough evidence already to be successful in a prosecution. Her comment mearly means that it does look slightly better that you at least had the money for the fare even if you didn't use it but it is irrelevant as your actions almost certainly demonstrate intent to avoid the fare in legal terms (boarded at a manned station, travelled to a station with a regular service, did not buy on board and if the ticket office was open and you didn't go there then you also missed another opportunity to buy).

 

[Vlaspak]

I read the link you sent me and thank you for that. I dont understand though how they defy the intent of avoiding paying. I asked for a fine or if there is anything i can do to pay. Well i will have to wait and see what they will send me and prepare a letter. I saw some drafts you have presented on the forum and copied some of them so i can alter them according to my situation and present them to you to tell me if it is ok or needs more alterations. Thank God you have this forum with all these info. I intend to pay on the station but alas i got myself in such trouble by not looking for the inspector on the train....I hope they are lenient and take under consideration that i intended to pay whatever the lady was gonna ask me to. When i called on their Department they told me that it was not the right procedure to give me a fine on the spot but i did not understand why since i told them i dont have a ticket and i want to pay whatever she tells me.

 

[yorkie]

I agree proving intent may be difficult, depending of course on what was said when you were questioned. So I suspect they will be more likely to prosecute under the Byelaws. See the links provided, and previous threads.

...I asked for a fine ....

Did you ask to pay the fare, or did you specifically ask to pay a fine? To me, someone asking to pay a fine sounds like they know they are guilty and just want the punishment over with quickly. But, of course, it doesn't work like that; only a court can issue a fine for a railway ticketing matter.

 

[Vlaspak]

No i did not say to pay the fine. When i was on the line for the ticket checks i evade the line and went straight to the guard and told him i dont have a ticket because the inspector did not pass through my coach..i know i should have searched for him but i thought i can pay on the station...i told her twice to pay the ticket price...She asked me why i did not buy one and i told her i was late which is a fact because i overslept but it is no excuse and i told her i wanted to buy an onboard one but since i did not look for the conductor i though i can buy one there..... I have seen people buying tickets onboard and i have bought tickets on board sometimes. The fact is that being late i got myself on this awful situation. My situation is almost identical with the Worried Sick one. I also copied the letter crehld posted and have it ready if i am give the opportunity to send them a letter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I dont understand though how they defy the intent of avoiding paying. I asked for a fine or if there is anything i can do to pay. . . . . . but i did not understand why since i told them i dont have a ticket and i want to pay whatever she tells me.

There are two separate things going on here which we have to untangle before it will make sense.

Firstly, the people. The person who interviewed you was not a ticket seller. They were investigating situations which seemed likely to be ticket offences ("fare evasion", ticket abuse, frauds etc.).

In case you're still wondering why there are two separate types of people involved in ticket checking and selling, perhaps I can give a simple illustration. Suppose a person was found to have done something very dangerous or harmful and which is also unlawful and involves some financial value. And suppose that there was a clear pattern of the amount of fines that the crime attracted. So thinking about this, you can now put yourself in the position of the criminal, the investigator, or just the interested observer, and can consider this question:-
Is it reasonable that, when there is evidence that a person is found to have committed an offence, then on those occasions when they are found out, they can simply make payment of the financial value, and never be prosecuted for the actual offence, or
on those occasions when they are not found out, simply avoid the payment ?

The Criminal will (almost) always say yes.
The State will (almost) always say no.
The interested observer will (almost) always not care about the law, but will decide on how they feel about the people concerned, or what they think about the law that is being enforced, (or as crops up on this forum, what they think about the Courts which have to apply the laws which have been created).

If you think that is reasonable, then I can see lots of problems from theft, fraud. copyright infringment, nuisance and countless other offences not being prosecuted (and therefore never being a deterrent to anyone considering avoiding their responsibilities).

Secondly, the fare. You should always have a ticket before you travel (unless that it not physically possible). If it was possible, and you still didn't buy a ticket, then that demonstrates the 'intent' to avoid payment. A phrase which is popularly used on this forum is that "a passenger should buy a ticket for their journey at the first available opportunity". While that phrase is not an absolute condition in all circumstances, it is a good approximation. As rail staff often say, "at least they had a ticket, even if it wasn't the right one". But a passenger who travels without having taken advantage of an opportunity to pay their fare when that opportunity was available to them, does seem to demonstrate an 'intent' not to pay.

I still dont know why it is on my benefit that i have the funds to pay the ticket, per what she told me

If you didn't have the funds to pay for your travel then it would appear that you could never have had any intention to pay (and therefore you had the intention to defraud the Railway Company of the fare).

If you did have the funds, then at least there is a possibility that you could have paid - although you didn't, and you should have done. So it is not automatically proven that you are a fare evader. But it does seem clear that you deliberately travelled without a ticket.

 

[Vlaspak]

I totally understand what you are saying. Well whatever the consequences are i will face them and i must stop panicking....

 

[455driver]

I agree proving intent may be difficult, depending of course on what was said when you were questioned. So I suspect they will be more likely to prosecute under the Byelaws. See the links provided, and previous threads.

Surely intent is proved by walking past an open ticket office/ working TVM and boarding a train without a ticket?

 

[Clip]

Surely intent is proved by walking past an open ticket office/ working TVM and boarding a train without a ticket?

I would agree with you on that one. And saying that you had money to pay the fare but didn't certainly builds a good case for them.

 

[Vlaspak]

Yes i deliberately boarded the train without a ticket but i was gonna buy the ticket on board but i didnt see the conductor. So when i came down the train i went straight to the inspector and told her what happened. The barrier was not near the exit. It was on the way to the ticket offices and then is the exit. I told her if i can pay for the ticket now, because i did not find the conductor. I explained i was late. It is a fact that it happens to be late. I didnt know i was gonna take the train that day but since i was late to go to work i decided on the spot. I thought i can buy a ticket on board. I did not see the conductor and i told her i can pay now. Nevertheless, i will await the letter and see what they would say.

 

[yorkie]

Yes i deliberately boarded the train without a ticket .....

This is something that will be of particular interest to the Company. Did you inform them of this? Did they ask a question like "if I had not stopped you, would you have paid for your journey?"

If they suspect you deliberately boarded because you wanted to give yourself a chance of getting a free journey, that makes things much more serious.

 

[Vlaspak]

No of course not. I did not say something like this. She did not ask me this question. The first and last thing i told her was please can i buy a ticket i was late on the station and i did not find the conductor on the train. I did not show them i wanted to evade something.

 

[yorkie]

In that case it sounds like the Company may not be accusing you of deliberately avoiding payment, so a Byelaw prosecution (if an out of court settlement is not reached) is far more likely.

 

[Vlaspak]

From what i read the fact is that shouldn't they issued me with a fine??? I did not head directly to the exit. The journey from the train to the exit in Chesterfield is : Getting off the train, walking through the tube where the inspector was, ticket offices and then the exit. I offered from the beginning to pay, shouldnt they issued me a fine?

 

[najaB]

I offered from the beginning to pay, shouldnt they issued me a fine?

With respect, you did not. 'The beginning' was at Sheffield when you passed an open ticket office and ticket vending machines and boarded the train. Please drop the 'hard done by' attitude as it won't get you anywhere with the TOC.

 

[Vlaspak]

I mean from the beginning when i was talking to the inspector mate. Of course my mistake was being late so no time to pick a ticket from the station as i was rushing to enter the train...I don't try to pretend something else... I am talking to the simple thing i read on the national rail saying if you are found without a vaild ticket you must be issued a fine and i find it curious they did not give me one.

 

[bradders1983]

I mean from the beginning when i was talking to the inspector mate. Of course my mistake was being late so no time to pick a ticket from the station as i was rushing to enter the train...I don't try to pretend something else... I am talking to the simple thing i read on the national rail saying if you are found without a vaild ticket you must be issued a fine and i find it curious they did not give me one.

Why the rush? Daytime from Sheffield there are 5/6 trains an hour to Chesterfield, if you miss one then merely wait 10 minutes or so for the next one, gives you plenty of time to get a ticket....

 

[najaB]

I am talking to the simple thing i read on the national rail saying if you are found without a vaild ticket you must be issued a fine and i find it curious they did not give me one.

That only applies in Penalty Fares areas (Chesterfield is not one for XC so it is irrelevant), and even if it did apply there is no automatic right to be issued a Penalty Fare.

 

[Vlaspak]

My colleague was waiting for me to pick me up to go to work. My workplace is in barlborough so if i take a later train plus the traffic there we would be late for work. Nevertheless this is not an excuse it is my mistake. Thank you all for your precious information. On Monday i will give them a call maybe to see if they have the report and what are they going to do.

 

[bradders1983]

My colleague was waiting for me to pick me up to go to work. My workplace is in barlborough so if i take a later train plus the traffic there we would be late for work. Nevertheless this is not an excuse it is my mistake. Thank you all for your precious information. On Monday i will give them a call maybe to see if they have the report and what are they going to do.

Bet you will always buy a ticket in future now though, wont you?

 

[Vlaspak]

Ooo mate you cannot imagine what i have been through yesterday....I was lighting the cigarettes one after the other.... Then i realized that nothing can be done with being paranoid and panicking. The forum helped also and i a good friend of mine has a cousin who is solicitor he also told me to relax and we will find the solution when the time comes. I will wait their letter and see what i can do....