Sold out trains

[modernrail]

I have been very confused by these JP TVMs.

I have been very confused by these JP TVMs.

It is the Train Operator that sets the flag for the train service to say whether reservations are compulsory; RDG does not have the power to decide these things, it operates the systems used by the retailers. The 'policy' that English train operators apply ultimately rests with DfT, although (as usual with any current DfT 'policy') it is all over the place with, on the one hand, the 'walk-up' railway being a requirement but on the other hand, long distance operators being encouraged to push people towards booking as that helps shift demand when the pressure is to keep costs down rather than run more or longer trains.

Yes this seems very grey.

My (maybe incorrect) understanding is that part of the obligation on the operators is to operate a walk up service. So you can always be assured that you can buy a ticket and board if you physically can.

If operators are to be allowed to designate trains as reservation only, this is a fundamental shift in the policy and one that passengers are probably not aware of.

The fact that you can still buy a ticket at the ticket office and some TVMs suggests it is not a policy, it is a sort of smoke and mirrors thing that prejudices those less savvy.

As far as I am concerned it is every UK resident or visitor’s sacred right to maintain the spirit of spontaneity, risking in the process a 2 hour sit down next to a constantly opening and closing large toilet door. Especially as lots of people don’t turn up for their reserved trains in any case and so trains are not sold out - they are theoretically potentially full.

Also - for the ones that are showing as sold out - how sold out are they? Are they putting this on as soon as reservations are full or allowing some ‘standing’? It is all as clear as mud.

I will continue to beat the non-system, praying for the day these jokers and their blanket incompetence leave No 10.

 

[Adam Williams]

It is the Train Operator that sets the flag for the train service to say whether reservations are compulsory; RDG does not have the power to decide these things, it operates the systems used by the retailers. The 'policy' that English train operators apply ultimately rests with DfT, although (as usual with any current DfT 'policy') it is all over the place with, on the one hand, the 'walk-up' railway being a requirement but on the other hand, long distance operators being encouraged to push people towards booking as that helps shift demand when the pressure is to keep costs down rather than run more or longer trains.

It's an accreditation requirement to respect the flag in the timetable data and ensure the user of any TIS that does journey planning has a seat if the flag is set on a timetabled service they are trying to buy.

Who writes the accreditation specs and performs accreditation? Who could publish an amendment to the spec tomorrow to allow a warning to be shown instead?

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's an accreditation requirement to respect the flag in the timetable data and ensure the user of any TIS that does journey planning has a seat if the flag is set on a timetabled service they are trying to buy.

Who writes the accreditation specs and performs accreditation? Who could publish an amendment to the spec tomorrow to allow a warning to be shown instead?

There was talk of a new train status but I don’t know where that’s at currently

 

[OscarH]

There was talk of a new train status but I don’t know where that’s at currently

A new status or updating the meaning of reservations recommended was the "preferred option" last I heard, but timelines are what you'd expect given there's 20 layers of beaurocracy and there's a good chance of a TOC objecting somewhere and delaying the whole thing

 

[Adam Williams]

A new status or updating the meaning of reservations recommended was the "preferred option" last I heard, but timelines are what you'd expect given there's 20 layers of beaurocracy and there's a good chance of a TOC objecting somewhere and delaying the whole thing

I expect it'll eventually happen, perhaps once the taxpayer has paid for a few dozen more billable Alchemmy days

 

[thedbdiboy]

It's an accreditation requirement to respect the flag in the timetable data and ensure the user of any TIS that does journey planning has a seat if the flag is set on a timetabled service they are trying to buy.

Who writes the accreditation specs and performs accreditation? Who could publish an amendment to the spec tomorrow to allow a warning to be shown instead?

The problem is that a standard can be written but with a multiplicity of suppliers in the data chain there is no 'free' solution to create a category for 'reservation to be made when available otherwise only walk-up tickets to be sold with a warning that a seat cannot be guaranteed'. This is one of the biggest failures of the privatisation model of fare distribution and retailing that sought to deregulate 'how' things are done and only check the answer. It was all part of 'light touch, let the private sector sort it' approach coupled to very specific requirements for the industry to maintain national through ticketing. It means that when 'new' requirements emerge, rather than an API change or simple amendment, everyone has coded things different ways. The problems are well understood but there's 25 years of divergent processes that need to be managed now. What's very clear is that advertising services as 'sold out' online when one can still go to a station and buy a ticket is completely and utterly barmy and as alluded to above is consuming a fair few billable hours.

 

[JonathanH]

What's very clear is that advertising services as 'sold out' online when one can still go to a station and buy a ticket is completely and utterly barmy and as alluded to above is consuming a fair few billable hours.

It is even worse if there is disruption.

I was helping a former colleague today who had wanted to catch the 1109 from Crewe to Edinburgh. It started at Preston, so she was unable to get to that train to use it. On checking an application on her phone, it looked like the earliest there was another train to Edinburgh was the connection at 1609, because later trains were either 'sold out' or cancelled. In practice, she went via Manchester and picked up the 1222 to Edinburgh, which was one of the 'sold out' trains. She described it as 'fairly busy', rather than crush loaded.

If trains are going to be marked as sold out, then journey planners need to be improved to
a) find connections which have some space, for example matching up capacity between Crewe and Edinburgh even if it involves that not being the quickest connection
b) allow passengers to replan when trains are cancelled
c) show the part of the journey where it is likely to be full
d) perhaps indicate how much of the capacity is given over to reservable accommodation

 

[OscarH]

The problem is that a standard can be written but with a multiplicity of suppliers in the data chain there is no 'free' solution to create a category for 'reservation to be made when available otherwise only walk-up tickets to be sold with a warning that a seat cannot be guaranteed'. This is one of the biggest failures of the privatisation model of fare distribution and retailing that sought to deregulate 'how' things are done and only check the answer. It was all part of 'light touch, let the private sector sort it' approach coupled to very specific requirements for the industry to maintain national through ticketing. It means that when 'new' requirements emerge, rather than an API change or simple amendment, everyone has coded things different ways. The problems are well understood but there's 25 years of divergent processes that need to be managed now. What's very clear is that advertising services as 'sold out' online when one can still go to a station and buy a ticket is completely and utterly barmy and as alluded to above is consuming a fair few billable hours.

Given the rules for accredited TIS suppliers about complying with new standards, this shouldn't be a huge problem in my opinion. The update to the spec takes a while with review periods etc, and then suppliers have x months to have comply as usual. All of that is in theory, I think anyone involved knows that's not quite the reality.

But I suspect a majority of the time here will be internal bureaucracy and arguing with the TOCs, rather than the TIS side

 

[Wallsendmag]

Given the rules for accredited TIS suppliers about complying with new standards, this shouldn't be a huge problem in my opinion. The update to the spec takes a while with review periods etc, and then suppliers have x months to have comply as usual. All of that is in theory, I think anyone involved knows that's not quite the reality.

But I suspect a majority of the time here will be internal bureaucracy and arguing with the TOCs, rather than the TIS side

If only everyone (including TOC suppliers) complied with standards

 

[afc75]

Also - for the ones that are showing as sold out - how sold out are they? Are they putting this on as soon as reservations are full or allowing some ‘standing’? It is all as clear as mud.

I had this last year travelling to Liverpool on a Monday. All off peak trains b4 3pm sold out. After much faff, found a website that allowed me to buy an off peak return.

Got a table seat to myself......Makes me wonder how much revenue they are turning down by effectively telling people not to use a train!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had this last year travelling to Liverpool on a Monday. All off peak trains b4 3pm sold out. After much faff, found a website that allowed me to buy an off peak return.

Got a table seat to myself......Makes me wonder how much revenue they are turning down by effectively telling people not to use a train!

Much as I don't like the approach, there's a big difference between the broadly competent way LNER are using it to manage capacity (e.g. by making it really easy to get, change and cancel a reservation including seat selection, and by releasing a reasonable number of counted places on top of the actual reserved seats in order to "oversell" the train but avoid people buying tickets "for" trains they're never going to be able to physically board) and the utterly incompetent way Avanti are using it to avoid selling seats they could perfectly well sell by only putting about 3/4 of the train out for reservation and stopping when that's all sold, or forgetting to release whole trains entirely.

If we have to have it, then it should be actively managed and vaguely competent as per how LNER are doing it.

For the WCML by the way the trick to getting a walk up ticket (which works to more or less everywhere and should work on all sales sites/apps) is to stick enough "via" points in to ensure you're routed via a combination of WMT, Northern and TPE, even if you don't intend to use those trains, and then just selecting the desired interavailable walk up fare when asked to pick the fare. Harder to do on the ECML where there are stations only served by LNER, but they manage it much better so there's less need to do so, even if you might have to pick the "wrong" train to get one. For Liverpool for instance, while I haven't tried, via Northampton and Birmingham New St should ensure you a WMT only itinerary. I can't think of anywhere on the WCML where it in principle wouldn't be possible to do this - even Wigan NW/Warrington BQ are in station groups so you could route via Birmingham, Manchester and the other station.

It's annoying late at night though, I once arrived at Euston to find the last Avanti to MKC was going just over an hour late, and wanting to board it before it went I only had the option of buying a ticket as I was walking down to it, and because it'd "already gone" the only one I could get was interavailable, I couldn't get the cheaper Avanti Only fare (though to be fair it's not much cheaper now). It would have been possible to get it from a WMT TVM had I had time though as these don't use journey planners.

 

[OscarH]

If only everyone (including TOC suppliers) complied with standards

It would save a lot of hassle wouldn't it! In this case when/if the spec and data change happen I think compliance will broadly be fine for the major retailers at least though, as it'll likely be something they want as opposed to an inconvenience