Sold out trains

[modernrail]

Hi - I am currently trying get north from Oxford to Southport, amid various late running trains and cancellations, and the online ticket sellers are all refusing to allow me to buy me a ticket.

I get there might not be seat reservations but I have never had it where you can’t actually buy a ticket. I thought they were always meant to be available, but with the warning you might not get a seat?

Not sure what to do as due at my sisters place. Don’t really want to get on a train without a ticket and ticket office likely closed at the station I get on at (which is not Oxford).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks to be availability on the 1210 via Birmingham if this is any help?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@modernrail. Can you maybe purchase an appropriate walk up ticket from a TVM at the station that you're actually starting from, such as an Off Peak Single (or Return), assuming it doesn't necessitate any element of "journey planning" and then just get onboard the next available train(s)?

 

[Benjwri]

@modernrail. Can you maybe purchase an appropriate walk up ticket from a TVM at the station that you're actually starting from, such as an Off Peak Single (or Return), assuming it doesn't necessitate any element of "journey planning" and then just get onboard the next available train(s)?

Oxford will also have a ticket office that should be open and can sell you an Off Peak Single without an itinerary.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Oxford will also have a ticket office that should be open and can sell you an Off Peak Single without an itinerary.

Indeed, but is the OP actually starting their journey at Oxford?

 

[modernrail]

Thanks for replies. Looks like the whole service is off today. Very overcrowded XC, to meet a cancelled Avanti, and likely a series of cancelled Northern connections at Wigan looking at that board.

Is this going to become a thing now where the online ticket sellers refuse to sell you a ticket even though you can just go to a TVM or ticket office and buy one? That just doesn’t seem right. If we are being encouraged to use digital ticketing, surely the availability should be exactly the same as at the point of sale in the stations? The last thing passengers need is yet more inconsistency in ticketing arrangements.

Another thing I noticed with this journey is that all 4 online sellers I tried recommended a different route for this journey in terms of recommended stations to change at. Again, feels inconsistent when I thought they were all running off the same underlying system.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Another thing I noticed with this journey is that all 4 online sellers I tried recommended a different route for this journey in terms of recommended stations to change at. Again, feels inconsistent when I thought they were all running off the same underlying system.

Not sure that they actually do all operate exactly the same way.

So, have you now set off? And might you decide to travel via Liverpool if itineraries for travelling via Wigan fall apart?

 

[Adam Williams]

Is this going to become a thing now where the online ticket sellers refuse to sell you a ticket even though you can just go to a TVM or ticket office and buy one?

That's what Rail Delivery Group requires them to do, yes.

That just doesn’t seem right. If we are being encouraged to use digital ticketing, surely the availability should be exactly the same as at the point of sale in the stations?

You'd think so, wouldn't you.

 

[modernrail]

Not sure that they actually do all operate exactly the same way.

So, have you now set off? And might you decide to travel via Liverpool if itineraries for travelling via Wigan fall apart?

I am at Stafford waiting to see what state the Liverpool train is in. If I can get on it that is what I am going to go for as that Southport service is a running joke whereas at least the Merseyrail service tends to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==

That's what Rail Delivery Group requires them to do, yes.


You'd think so, wouldn't you.

Yes you really really would!!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don’t count on TVMs being available for these tickets for too much longer

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don’t count on TVMs being available for these tickets for too much longer

Presumably planner based TVMs wouldn't sell them, and this is increasingly the norm?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Presumably planner based TVMs wouldn't sell them, and this is increasingly the norm?

Exactly

 

[wilbers]

Don’t count on TVMs being available for these tickets for too much longer

What would happen then at stations with TVMs that won't sell a walk-up ticket for the train wanted, and no ticket office? Buy on train become an option due to no ticket facilities at station?

 

[TheSmiths82]

Probably far too late now, but is the Oxford Tube to London not an option, then if Avanti are being their usual self a London North Western to Crewe, then a local train to Liverpool onto Southport (I am not sure if there are any direct trains from Crewe to Southport, but I doubt it). This is assuming the issue is trying to get out of Oxford.

 

[Kite159]

Presumably planner based TVMs wouldn't sell them, and this is increasingly the norm?

Oh joy, more of those useless journey planner type TVMs which take ages to sell a basic ticket such as a day return from station A to station B.
Something which will probably push some less tech savvy passengers away if they live at an unstaffed station if they find it confusing and don't want to board without buying a ticket

 

[OscarH]

Is this going to become a thing now where the online ticket sellers refuse to sell you a ticket even though you can just go to a TVM or ticket office and buy one?

This has been around since the pandemic, and a few TOCs decided it made their job easier so why bother going back

Don’t count on TVMs being available for these tickets for too much longer

So if the TVM won't sell a ticket and there's no ticket office (or they also have a JP only TIS), can I board with no ticket as there's no opportunity to buy?

 

[Wallsendmag]

This has been around since the pandemic, and a few TOCs decided it made their job easier so why bother going back


So if the TVM won't sell a ticket and there's no ticket office (or they also have a JP only TIS), can I board with no ticket as there's no opportunity to buy?

There aren't any Ticket Office TIS that can't sell a ticket at any time.

 

[OscarH]

There aren't any Ticket Office TIS that can't sell a ticket at any time.

Will that always be the case? Either way, even if that will never be the case, there may simply be no ticket office or it may be closed

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@modernrail. Did you eventually make it to Southport?

 

[trainophile]

I am at Stafford waiting to see what state the Liverpool train is in. If I can get on it that is what I am going to go for as that Southport service is a running joke whereas at least the Merseyrail service tends to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2023 ==


Yes you really really would!!

I was on that one, the 12:34 from New Street I presume. It was a bit cosy. Four coaches instead of the usual eight, today of all days. Wonder if you were also on the 14:24 from South Parkway as I was. Not the best day for travelling but hopefully you made it.

We seem to have a lot of Southport members. Perhaps we should have a meet here.

 

[modernrail]

I was on that one, the 12:34 from New Street I presume. It was a bit cosy. Four coaches instead of the usual eight, today of all days. Wonder if you were also on the 14:24 from South Parkway as I was. Not the best day for travelling

I was on that one, the 12:34 from New Street I presume. It was a bit cosy. Four coaches instead of the usual eight, today of all days. Wonder if you were also on the 14:24 from South Parkway as I was. Not the best day for travelling but hopefully you made it.

We seem to have a lot of Southport members. Perhaps we should have a meet here.

I was on that one! And the 14.24. How funny. I noticed that was the one they have put back into its original colours.

I have also been treated to a very odd thunderstorm in Southport at my sister’s place.

 

[robbeech]

Exactly

Simple!

What would happen then at stations with TVMs that won't sell a walk-up ticket for the train wanted, and no ticket office? Buy on train become an option due to no ticket facilities at station?

No. You’d be issued a penalty fare and the issuing staff member would agree with you that it’s wholly unfair and would suggest and even encourage you to appeal.

 

[modernrail]

There aren't any Ticket Office TIS that can't sell a ticket at any time.

I have been very confused by these JP TVMs.

Simple!


No. You’d be issued a penalty fare and the issuing staff member would agree with you that it’s wholly unfair and would suggest and even encourage you to appeal.

I hope that many would just not issue the notice and sell you a ticket.

Not only are most of these JP based tricky to use, but the concept is gibberish unless they are selling you an advanced fare for a specific train. As they are not they are just lying to you, telling you they are selling you a ticket for a specific train when the validity is actually different to that. I don’t think they make a point of telling you what the real validity is - although I can’t be sure because my brain has usually imploded by the time I (and half the station behind me because of the idiotic size of the screens on some of them) have made my way through the matrix of questions.

If they are also going to lock you out of buying a ticket altogether when tickets are technically available then screw the system - I am just going to get on the train. I personally think the BTP would have a significant job on prosecuting somebody for evading a fare that a billboard sized TVM specifically told them they could not buy yet they absolutely could have bought if there was an open ticket office. The only defrauding in that situation is the railway defrauding the passenger of the opportunity to travel. The CPS would likely tell the BTP that all such fines are likely unenforceable.

If we had reservation only trains, it would be different, but we don’t. You can’t do half of one thing and half another. Gibberish.

It is also deeply ironic that the introduction of those stupid giant JP machines has coincided with a period where the J’s that you can apparently P are very often partly or largely fantasy. They would be better moving to issue permits to travel for all journeys that only crystallise into an actual full price ticket in the increasingly unlikely event the railway has managed to deposit you at your destination without slipping into delay repay territory.

If that has happened on my last 5 journeys I would have paid nothing more than the 20p for the permit to travel.

 

[gray1404]

I was on that one, the 12:34 from New Street I presume. It was a bit cosy. Four coaches instead of the usual eight, today of all days. Wonder if you were also on the 14:24 from South Parkway as I was. Not the best day for travelling but hopefully you made it.

We seem to have a lot of Southport members. Perhaps we should have a meet here.

We should definitely do a Southport meet. I'm up the road in Formby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. You’d be issued a penalty fare and the issuing staff member would agree with you that it’s wholly unfair and would suggest and even encourage you to appeal.

You wouldn't be issued with a PF because neither of the TOCs that use this practice, Avanti and LNER, do PFs.

You might end up with a £100+fare settlement letter though depending on who you encounter.

(This assumes you bought a partial ticket as far as you could of course - if it was GWR first as in this case they could do a PF)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2023 ==

If they are also going to lock you out of buying a ticket altogether when tickets are technically available then screw the system - I am just going to get on the train. I personally think the BTP would have a significant job on prosecuting somebody for evading a fare that a billboard sized TVM specifically told them they could not buy yet they absolutely could have bought if there was an open ticket office. The only defrauding in that situation is the railway defrauding the passenger of the opportunity to travel. The CPS would likely tell the BTP that all such fines are likely unenforceable.

The BTP and CPS are not involved in railway fare related prosecutions. (They can be, but pretty much all are brought privately).

If we had reservation only trains, it would be different, but we don’t. You can’t do half of one thing and half another. Gibberish.

The timetable says they are reservation only trains. In practice they're not because there's no penalty for not having a reservation (this is I believe the same in Poland except the Pendolinos where there is a penalty), but I suspect it would come down to what the timetable says rather than the unwritten workaround.

 

[Haywain]

You might end up with a £100+fare settlement letter though depending on who you encounter.

I can't speak for what Avanti would do, but it is highly unlikely that anything worse than an Unpaid Fares Notice would be issued by LNER.

 

[bakerstreet]

I seem to recall that journey planner TVMs do have an ability (at least currently) for the user to bypass the journey planner ‘feature’

Can’t remember what it is I was told to do to get round this.

This is very frustrating if TVMs will become itinerary only.

I often find that
- due to engineering or
- where travel acceptance is in place or
- in the very early morning or
- where off peak is not properly coded or
- a valid cheaper route is not offered or
- where there is some other issue,

often I simply cannot buy the ticket I want online but the TVM comes to the rescue.

I would be deeply uncomfortable either (a) not having a ticket or (b) buying the wrong ticket or not having the correct itinerary for the journey I’m making.

This is a real world situation and not a niche one.

It also makes some passengers believe that a walk up flexible ticket is only available for a specific train.

It feels that with some ticketing changes life just gets more complicated (can’t buy ticket) and precarious (may get fined/staff won’t understand).

I do see a benefit in a couple of situations. Where a passenger with no internet wants to buy an advanced ticket, especially on the day, or wants a seat reservation. But other than that?

Yes contactless roll out may help.

But then why not wait until the safe roll out of a national contactless scheme before making an itinerary compulsory for every journey in order to buy from a TVM.

Surely a TVM can do both. And should do both.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I seem to recall that journey planner TVMs do have an ability (at least currently) for the user to bypass the journey planner ‘feature’

Can’t remember what it is I was told to do to get round this.

This is very frustrating if TVMs will become itinerary only.

I often find that
- due to engineering or
- where travel acceptance is in place or
- in the very early morning or
- where off peak is not properly coded or
- a valid cheaper route is not offered or
- where there is some other issue,

often I simply cannot buy the ticket I want online but the TVM comes to the rescue.

I would be deeply uncomfortable either (a) not having a ticket or (b) buying the wrong ticket or not having the correct itinerary for the journey I’m making.

This is a real world situation and not a niche one.

It also makes some passengers believe that a walk up flexible ticket is only available for a specific train.

It feels that with some ticketing changes life just gets more complicated (can’t buy ticket) and precarious (may get fined/staff won’t understand).

I do see a benefit in a couple of situations. Where a passenger with no internet wants to buy an advanced ticket, especially on the day, or wants a seat reservation. But other than that?

Yes contactless roll out may help.

But then why not wait until the safe roll out of a national contactless scheme before making an itinerary compulsory for every journey in order to buy from a TVM.

Surely a TVM can do both. And should do both.

On the timetable/price screen on Flowbird TVMs just select the price not the train, that'll work.

 

[bakerstreet]

On the timetable/price screen on Flowbird TVMs just select the price not the train, that'll work.

Thank you so much - yes that’s the advice I remember now.

 

[thedbdiboy]

That's what Rail Delivery Group requires them to do, yes.


You'd think so, wouldn't you.

It is the Train Operator that sets the flag for the train service to say whether reservations are compulsory; RDG does not have the power to decide these things, it operates the systems used by the retailers. The 'policy' that English train operators apply ultimately rests with DfT, although (as usual with any current DfT 'policy') it is all over the place with, on the one hand, the 'walk-up' railway being a requirement but on the other hand, long distance operators being encouraged to push people towards booking as that helps shift demand when the pressure is to keep costs down rather than run more or longer trains.