Sold Incorrect Ticket - Penalty Fare

[Anru]

I haven't travelled by train in the UK for a few years as I have been out of the country.

Last week I went to my local station, Basingstoke, and asked for a return ticket to London Road. I can't remember the exact price, but the man at the counter told me it would cost over £30.

I was shocked by the price as, when I last took this journey several years ago, I had only paid somewhere in the region of £10-15. My initial assumption was that he was selling me two singles instead of a return, but when I asked this he confirmed that he was selling me a return ticket.

I then mentioned that I had been abroad for the last few years and made a comment about how I couldn't believe that the ticket had practically trebled in price during my absence. The man laughed and told me that the prices had gone up several times since then. I bought the ticket and passed through the barrier before going to the platform to wait for my train.

While I was waiting at the platform, I was approached by a revenue protection officer who asked to see my ticket. I gave it to him and he asked me where I was going. I told him that I was going to visit a friend in Guildford.

He then asked me why I had a ticket for Brighton if I was going to Guildford and showed me the ticket. It turns out that there are two stations named London Road and I had been sold a ticket to the station in Brighton instead.

I told him that I had wondered why the ticket was so expensive and that I had mentioned to the man at the ticket office that the price was almost three times what I had paid several years ago. I thanked him for approaching me and told him that I would go back to the ticket office for a refund and the correct ticket.

He told me that he would need to keep my ticket as evidence as he would be issuing me with a penalty fare for attempting to travel with an invalid ticket.

I explained to him that it seemed to be an honest mistake by the ticket office. I asked him if he could come to the ticket office with me, so that he could speak to the man who sold me the ticket, since he could explain that I had never said 'Brighton' and that he had accidentally sold me the wrong ticket.

He refused to do this, then told me that he deals with fare dodgers every day and knows how to spot them.

I then pointed out that Brighton was further than Guildford and that I had spent more on the ticket, so I asked how I was supposed to be attempting to dodge a fare by purchasing a more expensive ticket.

He told me to save it for court, took my details, issued me with a penalty fare, told me that I would be hearing from them soon and escorted me back to the barriers.

I went to the queue at the ticket office hoping to speak to the man who sold me the ticket but, while I was queuing, the revenue protection officer approached me and told me that I had to leave the station. When I asked why, he told me that I was banned from the station and that if I didn't leave he would call the police and report me for trespassing.

I left.

What happens next?

 

[gray1404]

Could you please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice you've received with your personal details retracted?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Basingstoke a compulsory ticket area? If not, and if you didn't board a train, I don't think this Penalty Fare was correctly issued, and thus you should appeal it, stating the full details of what happened as above, and it should be rescinded. Furthermore, the ticket, because it was not used for travel, should be refundable minus a £10 admin fee. Entering a station does not count as travel in this regard, you have to actually travel.

Being asked to leave the station is strange; were you in any way aggressive or abusive to the inspector who issued it?

Edit: it being a CTA isn't relevant as any ticket valid for travel from that station entitles entry into the CTA.

 

[gray1404]

I think you should issue a letter before action to South Western Railway for breach of contract as you were denied access to the railway for no valid reason despite holding a ticket.

I would also submit a subject access request to SWR for station CCTV footage from both the station camera and the member of staff, plus any audio, as evidence.

This is in addition to a formal complaint to customer services and an appeal against the penalty fare. They also need to refund your unused ticket. Did the staff member tell you about the appeals process for the penalty fare?

Also, we'll need to check the routing guide to see if the ticket you held was valid as London Road Guildford anyway.

I also hate to ask this but did things get heated between you and the staff member? I'm confused as to why if he issued you with a penalty fare why he said to save it for court, that you would be hearing from them soon and then escorted you back to the barriers.

 

[Starmill]

A ticket from Basingstoke to London Road (Brighton) is entirely valid from Basingstoke to Woking and then from Woking to Guildford. Was that what you were planning on doing?

I would argue SWR breached your contract and owe you damages. How did you travel to Guildford in the end?

 

[Anru]

Could you please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice you've received with your personal details retracted?

I'm not at home at the moment so I don't have the notice but, from what I recall, the penalty fare notice the revenue protection officer gave me was just a basic form with very little information on the journey. It was almost entirely my personal details.

I have not received anything from them in the post yet.

Is Basingstoke a compulsory ticket area? If not, and if you didn't board a train, I don't think this Penalty Fare was correctly issued, and thus you should appeal it, stating the full details of what happened as above, and it should be rescinded. Furthermore, the ticket, because it was not used for travel, should be refundable minus a £10 admin fee. Entering a station does not count as travel in this regard, you have to actually travel.

Being asked to leave the station is strange; were you in any way aggressive or abusive to the inspector who issued it?

I don't know if it's a compulsory ticket area, but it's definitely a penalty fare station and, as they have barriers, you cannot get to a platform without a ticket.

I was nothing but polite to him, but he seemed to take offence when I suggested that the person who had sold me the ticket had made an honest mistake.

I think you should issue a letter before action to South Western Railway for breach of contract as you were denied access to the railway for no valid reason despite holding a ticket.

I would also submit a subject access request to SWR for station CCTV footage from both the station camera and the member of staff, plus any audio, as evidence.

This is in addition to a formal complaint to customer services and an appeal against the penalty fare. They also need to refund your unused ticket. Did the staff member tell you about the appeals process for the penalty fare?

Also, we'll need to check the routing guide to see if the ticket you held was valid as London Road Guildford anyway.

I also hate to ask this but did things get heated between you and the staff member? I'm confused as to why if he issued you with a penalty fare why he said to save it for court, that you would be hearing from them soon and then escorted you back to the barriers.

Thanks. All I have done for now is sent them a letter, as instructed, disputing the penalty fare. I requested a refund for the ticket that I paid for but was not able to use, due to the officer taking it, in this.

He was aggressive towards me as soon as I said that the person at the ticket office had made an honest mistake. I was a little sarcastic when I asked how I was supposed to be fare dodging by spending more money on a ticket but, apart from that, I was perfectly calm and rational the entire time.

A ticket from Basingstoke to London Road (Brighton) is entirely valid from Basingstoke to Woking and then from Woking to Guildford. Was that what you were planning on doing?

I would argue SWR breached your contract and owe you damages. How did you travel to Guildford in the end?

That was the route I planned on taking.

I ended up going by bus instead.

 

[gray1404]

Bear in mind that the appeals procedure has a time time limit of 21 days and is separate to any complaint. The appeals body is separate to any complaint you make direct with a company about breach of contract and staff conduct.

Please can you advice if the person who issued the penalty fare told you about the appeals procedure? I ask this because there are virious grounds for appeal.

Have you submitted your formal appeal yet? If not, it would be good to post a draft here so we can help you write it correctly.

Also, any CCTV or audio is usually only retained for about a month so it's important to request this promptly.

I'd also retain any bus tickets as proof of additional expenditure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's now reading to me like what the OP was given was an MG11 (i.e. was reported for prosecution), not a Penalty Fare. This might change things a bit, and does tally with the inspector's "see you in Court" comment.

@Anru, when you get home can you post a copy of what you got?

 

[Kilopylae]

Is it possible that OP was given a Penalty Fare on the day, and was then also referred for prosecution and sent the usual letter?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it possible that OP was given a Penalty Fare on the day, and was then also referred for prosecution and sent the usual letter?

I don't believe this is ever done - it's either a PF or a prosecution report. A PF can be withdrawn and prosecution initiated (though if paid by the deadline this almost never happens) but issuing both isn't a done thing.

 

[Anru]

Bear in mind that the appeals procedure has a time time limit of 21 days and is separate to any complaint. The appeals body is separate to any complaint you make direct with a company about breach of contract and staff conduct.

Please can you advice if the person who issued the penalty fare told you about the appeals procedure? I ask this because there are virious grounds for appeal.

Have you submitted your formal appeal yet? If not, it would be good to post a draft here so we can help you write it correctly.

Also, any CCTV or audio is usually only retained for about a month so it's important to request this promptly.

I'd also retain any bus tickets as proof of additional expenditure.

Thanks. I will be raising a complaint and filing a subject access request as you suggested.

He didn't mention anything about the appeals process verbally, but the information about the appeals procedure was on the penalty notice he gave me.

I sent the appeal letter in the post at the weekend.

Unfortunately I didn't retain the bus tickets but, if I get a refund for the train ticket, I don't think it would be fair for the rail company to have to pay for this anyway.

 

[BayPaul]

A ticket from Basingstoke to London Road (Brighton) is entirely valid from Basingstoke to Woking and then from Woking to Guildford. Was that what you were planning on doing?

And even if it wasn't valid, since he hadn't even stepped on a train, and had a ticket that was valid to go from Basingstoke to somewhere I don't see how this could possibly be a penalty fare or court case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And even if it wasn't valid, since he hadn't even stepped on a train, and had a ticket that was valid to go from Basingstoke to somewhere I don't see how this could possibly be a penalty fare or court case.

It does seem very bizarre. There seems to be no way a Court case could possibly succeed on this, if the facts are as the OP states and nothing is missing.

 

[Watershed]

SWR are entirely in the wrong from the description you have given us. But bear in mind that it might take a while to get what you are owed, and along the way, representatives of the company might make up various excuses as to why SWR did nothing wrong and/or that you are not entitled to anything.

The first order of business is clarifying exactly what the RPI did - did they issue you with a Penalty Fare or did they report you for prosecution? Your paperwork should hopefully clarify, so an anonymised photo/scan thereof would be very useful.

If you were issued with a Penalty Fare, it is definitely in your interests to raise an appeal. An appeal must be decided within 21 days; unless SWR cancel the PF before these 21 days are up (or before the appeal is decided, if sooner), you gain immunity from SWR prosecuting you regarding this incident.

Separately from this, you will want to raise a written complaint with SWR, outlining your description of events and including all relevant evidence. You should state what outcome you are seeking - in your shoes, I would expect an apology, an assurance that the RPI's actions are being urgently investigated, plus a full refund and a reasonable sum in compensation (likely three figures) for the various torts which SWR have committed.

 

[Wolfie]

I absolutely agree. You need to make it clear to SWR that if they try to justify the unjustifiable they will be facing civil action too. That stick only comes into play if they try the usual railway BS of "we are always right, you are always wrong".

 

[matt_world2004]

Is Basingstoke a compulsory ticket area? If not, and if you didn't board a train, I don't think this Penalty Fare was correctly issued, and thus you should appeal it, stating the full details of what happened as above, and it should be rescinded. Furthermore, the ticket, because it was not used for travel, should be refundable minus a £10 admin fee. Entering a station does not count as travel in this regard, you have to actually travel.

Being asked to leave the station is strange; were you in any way aggressive or abusive to the inspector who issued it?

Edit: it being a CTA isn't relevant as any ticket valid for travel from that station entitles entry into the CTA.

Point of order the full price of the ticket should be refunded because they didn't get an opportunity to use it.

 

[MikeWh]

A ticket from Basingstoke to London Road (Brighton) is entirely valid from Basingstoke to Woking and then from Woking to Guildford. Was that what you were planning on doing?

I'm not sure it would be valid for the last leg between Guildford and London Road (Guildford).

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure it would be valid for the last leg between Guildford and London Road (Guildford).

Indeed perhaps not, but it sounded like the OP was being accused of failing to Guildford rather than to London Road (Guildford). Either way it's very much plain that no offence was committed, and that no additional fare was due at Woking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2021 ==

Point of order the full price of the ticket should be refunded because they didn't get an opportunity to use it.

Indeed. If travel is denied outwith the contract terms, no admin fee would be chargeable on the refund. This can reasonably be done in certain conditions e.g. a train full and standing and staff close access to the platform.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure it would be valid for the last leg between Guildford and London Road (Guildford).

It's 1 mile and 23 chains from Guildford to London Road (Guildford); doubling back via London Road (Guildford) would therefore be within 3 miles of the shortest route, and hence a permitted route.

But even if this were not a permitted route, and even if OP had been "caught" at London Road (Guildford) - the worst that OP could be charged is the excess to the cheapest fare(s) that are valid for the route taken. They could neither be issued with a Penalty Fare nor would they be guilty of any offence.

This is all somewhat hypothetical though, given that OP was unquestionably in the right as they had not even travelled at the time they encountered the RPI.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Maybe hearsay but surely, the passenger has a responsibility to check his ticket before travel?

 

[Starmill]

Maybe hearsay but surely, the passenger has a responsibility to check his ticket before travel?

Even if one accepted that, no actual travel took place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if one accepted that, no actual travel took place.

Exactly. Ignoring CTAs which are not relevant here, a PF requires travel to have actually happened, whether someone might intend to do so is irrelevant, they have to actually do it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even if one accepted that, no actual travel took place.

Indeed. It seems clear on a number of points that no offence was committed and also that no Penalty Fare is due. This one seems pretty egregious.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But I get the OP had not travelled but why would an RPI ask to see his ticket if he was just waiting on the platform for the train?

 

[Starmill]

But I get the OP had not travelled but why would an RPI ask to see his ticket if he was just waiting on the platform for the train?

They're entitled to ask if they wish. It's not unheard of.

 

[talldave]

The outcome here sounds preposterous. What should have happened is the RPI and OP have a laugh about the mix up and the RPI possibly even offer to accompany the OP back to the ticket office to assist in rectifying the mix up.

Better still, wind back a few minutes and insert "Which London Road?" into the conversation...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're entitled to ask if they wish. It's not unheard of.

Indeed, the "remedy" on finding the wrong ticket is to tell the person to go and resolve it rather than board a train.

 

[robbeech]

I was nothing but polite to him, but he seemed to take offence when I suggested that the person who had sold me the ticket had made an honest mistake.

Unfortunately this can be like calling their wife and kids four letter words. The Railway frequently sticks together regardless of who is right and wrong.

I don't believe this is ever done - it's either a PF or a prosecution report. A PF can be withdrawn and prosecution initiated (though if paid by the deadline this almost never happens) but issuing both isn't a done thing.

It SHOULD never be done, but i absolutely wouldn't put it past staff to do it.

Unfortunately I didn't retain the bus tickets but, if I get a refund for the train ticket, I don't think it would be fair for the rail company to have to pay for this anyway.

It absolutely would be fair to get the Railway to pay for this but without the tickets to hand this won't be possible.

It does seem very bizarre. There seems to be no way a Court case could possibly succeed on this, if the facts are as the OP states and nothing is missing.

But what a court would decide isn't in the slightest bit relevant. This isn't the intention of the Railway. The intention is a scare and a couple of hundred quid in the pot out of court where zero evidence is required.

I'm not sure it would be valid for the last leg between Guildford and London Road (Guildford).

As others have said, perhaps not, but the ticket was valid for travel at that time, despite no travel having taken place.

Maybe hearsay but surely, the passenger has a responsibility to check his ticket before travel?

What does the perfectly valid at that location ticket say, how is the destination name printed, is it clear, has it printed properly?

The outcome here sounds preposterous. What should have happened is the RPI and OP have a laugh about the mix up and the RPI possibly even offer to accompany the OP back to the ticket office to assist in rectifying the mix up.

That isn't very revenue focussed though so this approach is becoming quite rare.

Better still, wind back a few minutes and insert "Which London Road?" into the conversation...

This is the question the ticket office staff should have asked if they were in any way good enough to work in a ticket office. Again, given the choice, they were sold the more expensive ticket. I'm sure someone will be able to check which combination of origin and destination has the most tickets sold.





It seems very odd and it's difficult even for me to understand why a member of staff would take this incorrect approach this aggressively (we only have your word for it). I can only assume they were lagging behind on their prosecutions so took whatever opportunity they could. Of course, no doubt we will see people jump on this statement and claim it to be nonsense, but we have all got copies of e-mails and mail over the years but we just can't post them.

As many others have said, providing things happened as you say they did, your ticket was valid for travel, regardless of whether it was the correct ticket for your intended journey or not. IF there is a penalty fare (there is some confusion here, clearly the staff member might have used the term but it's clear they're unintelligent and a danger to the reputation of their employer so they could easily have got that wrong) then you'll need to appeal that using the process on the paperwork you received at the time. I strongly suggest you upload all the paperwork you've received, and I certainly hope you have the ticket, and didn't let them keep it, or at least have a receipt for it. Remember to redact any personal details if/when you upload things.

I'd also have a think about what else you would like to do. You say they commented on "they know how to spot them". You should consider why they would say this and think whether there is any discrimination there due to the way you look, dress or speak. Of course they would deny everything, lose the body cam footage, and if you gave them your ticket i suspect they'll have binned that too but its all important to think about.

 

[Haywain]

It seems very odd and it's difficult even for me to understand why a member of staff would take this incorrect approach

I completely agree with this, it is utterly baffling.

 

[furlong]

I completely agree with this, it is utterly baffling.

The OP needs to post the photo of the paperwork - preferably including the date and time (so we can see that it wasn't April 1st). Or this could be a good training exercise - list all the mistakes you can find in the story, explaining the consequences of each in both practical and legal terms, and suggesting what should have happened to avoid each one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2021 ==

I ended up going by bus instead.

That must have caused quite a delay!

Did you consider getting off thet bus at Hook and trying the railway again from there? If you had a Penalty Fare ticket you might as well have made use of it - what station was it issued to? What's the betting that was wrong too?