Soham - Ely Doubling

[johnnyp_360]

following on from the Felixstowe-Nuneaton thread, more exciting things seem to be happening, e.g. Ipswich Bacon Chord, Ely North Junction Upgrade etc...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=54735&page=8

This was in my local news on friday...

http://www.elystandard.co.uk/news/n...4m_knock_back_over_european_funding_1_2466957

 

[D365]

Now all I'm waiting for is full electrification and resignalling where needed in CP6; the icing on the cake

 

[Tomnick]

Electrification might be beneficial, but I can't see resignalling (especially further west) doing much on its own...other than the possibility of even more delays resulting from obstacle detection LCs, that is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sounds like a bit of a shambles to get organised to do the loops work at Ely and then not do it.
I thought the loops were the first part of the redoubling scheme anyway.

 

[GB]

Electrification might be beneficial, but I can't see resignalling (especially further west) doing much on its own...other than the possibility of even more delays resulting from obstacle detection LCs, that is.

Much of the route between Ely and Peterborough is due to be resignalled in 2018...going "in cab" I believe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds like a bit of a shambles to get organised to do the loops work at Ely and then not do it.
I thought the loops were the first part of the redoubling scheme anyway.

But if its more beneficial to double the line first which then may negate the need (and costs) for the loops then surely that is a good thing?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But if its more beneficial to double the line first which then may negate the need (and costs) for the loops then surely that is a good thing?

Yes that's fine, but I thought the loop was essentially one end of the new double track.
I guess it also depends on how fast the freight traffic is building up.

 

[a good off]

2018 for in cab signalling on the March line? That's what the Network Rail PR department would like everyone to believe...

The Ely Dock Jn - Soham section was originally going to be doubled by the LNER but WW2 put a stop to it due to lack of funds.

 

[johnnyp_360]

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/New...-railway-station-a-reality-20140227141954.htm

Seems strange. Build station then double the track? Would it be better to do it the other way around?

 

[dk1]

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/New...-railway-station-a-reality-20140227141954.htm

Seems strange. Build station then double the track? Would it be better to do it the other way around?

Always been rejected before as apparently the main flow from Soham is towards Cambridge & the station will not serve it directly. Passengers will have to change at Ely.

 

[MarkyT]

Always been rejected before as apparently the main flow from Soham is towards Cambridge & the station will not serve it directly. Passengers will have to change at Ely.

Soham is a good example of a new station proposal made without clear understanding of what train services could stop there usefully. The infrequent Ipswich - Peterborough route stopping there would be unlikely to attract large numbers of passengers, so perhaps the station would make more sense as part of an new hourly local service between Cambridge and Ely running via Newmarket and the Ely chord reinstated there. That could call at Soham and together with the Cambridge - Ipswich trains would double frequency between Cambridge and Newmarket, no doubt with an additional passing loop required on that single track section. Dullingham stops could be removed from the Ipswich trains and hourly stops there added to the new local service, together with Cherry Hinton if a new station was also considered there. If these lines were electrified in the future, possibly in connection with freight primarily, that could offer the possibility of through electric service from Soham and Newmarket to London.

 

[eastdyke]

Soham is a good example of a new station proposal made without clear understanding of what train services could stop there usefully. The infrequent Ipswich - Peterborough route stopping there would be unlikely to attract large numbers of passengers, so perhaps the station would make more sense as part of an new hourly local service between Cambridge and Ely running via Newmarket and the Ely chord reinstated there. That could call at Soham and together with the Cambridge - Ipswich trains would double frequency between Cambridge and Newmarket, no doubt with an additional passing loop required on that single track section. Dullingham stops could be removed from the Ipswich trains and hourly stops there added to the new local service, together with Cherry Hinton if a new station was also considered there. If these lines were electrified in the future, possibly in connection with freight primarily, that could offer the possibility of through electric service from Soham and Newmarket to London.

Newmarket (pop. ~ 16,000) is an interesting rail study. Currently an hourly service to London Kings Cross (about 70 miles with a change at Cambridge) with an up journey time of ~ 1hr 30mins, down journey time ~ 1hr 20mins. The differences are due to the waiting times for the connection at Cambridge.
Annual season price £4912. Station usage 2011/12 232,374.

Compare with Stowmarket (pop. ~ 19,000). Currently a half hourly peak time service to London Liverpool Street (about 80 miles without a change) with a journey time of around 1hr 25mins.
Annual season price £6192. Station usage 2011/12 879,814.

Simply the 'electric' effect for Stowmarket or are other factors at play?

There are huge numbers of commuters from Cambridge where average house prices have been reported as £368,000. The average from the same source for Newmarket is just £202,000.

You could very easily conclude that there is considerable scope for promoting Newmarket as a London commuter dormitory with development of the rail service accordingly.

 

[evergreenadam]

Newmarket (pop. ~ 16,000) is an interesting rail study. Currently an hourly service to London Kings Cross (about 70 miles with a change at Cambridge) with an up journey time of ~ 1hr 30mins, down journey time ~ 1hr 20mins. The differences are due to the waiting times for the connection at Cambridge.
Annual season price £4912. Station usage 2011/12 232,374.

Compare with Stowmarket (pop. ~ 19,000). Currently a half hourly peak time service to London Liverpool Street (about 80 miles without a change) with a journey time of around 1hr 25mins.
Annual season price £6192. Station usage 2011/12 879,814.

Simply the 'electric' effect for Stowmarket or are other factors at play?

There are huge numbers of commuters from Cambridge where average house prices have been reported as £368,000. The average from the same source for Newmarket is just £202,000.

You could very easily conclude that there is considerable scope for promoting Newmarket as a London commuter dormitory with development of the rail service accordingly.

Have often thought about exactly the same and how a new station at Soham would only have a good business case if the the curve was reinstated to capture Cambridge bound traffic. A Cambridge-Newmarket-Soham-Ely service would fill in the missing connections (Soham-Cambridge/Ely/Newmarket and Newmarket-Ely). Better rail links to Newmarket and Soham could relieve demand for housing in Cambridge. I guess the Busway and the new station at Cambridge Science Park have been the main priorities for Cambs CC so far, but once they have been completed to assist growth on the west side of Cambridge then attention may turn to the potential for greater development in East Cambridgeshire/Suffolk. It doesn't help that Newmarket is oddly in Suffolk, despite being almost entirely surrounded by Cambridgeshire, which would make promoting a scheme harder at local government level.

Also agree on scope for long distance commuting due to low property prices, if Newmarket had a through service to London KX it would be attractive for commuters and racegoers. However that would rely on electrification, in which case extending it on to Bury St Edmunds would be a good idea - historic town, population 35k with currently poor rail services to London but potential to be very attractive for commuters to London if the journey time can be kept below 1hr 20mins. Presumably property prices there are also currently low. When I visited a few years ago I noticed how run down the attractive listed station building was, despite serving a large population.

Once electrification has been extend to Bury St Edmunds you may as well continue to Ipswich although any 4/8 car trains from London KX would be lightly used over this stretch unless they replaced the existing Cambridge-Ipswich service completely. So perhaps the London KX services would be better to turn back at Bury St Edmunds.

 

[dk1]

Newmarket (pop. ~ 16,000) is an interesting rail study. Currently an hourly service to London Kings Cross (about 70 miles with a change at Cambridge) with an up journey time of ~ 1hr 30mins, down journey time ~ 1hr 20mins. The differences are due to the waiting times for the connection at Cambridge.
Annual season price £4912. Station usage 2011/12 232,374.

Compare with Stowmarket (pop. ~ 19,000). Currently a half hourly peak time service to London Liverpool Street (about 80 miles without a change) with a journey time of around 1hr 25mins.
Annual season price £6192. Station usage 2011/12 879,814.

Simply the 'electric' effect for Stowmarket or are other factors at play?

There are huge numbers of commuters from Cambridge where average house prices have been reported as £368,000. The average from the same source for Newmarket is just £202,000.

You could very easily conclude that there is considerable scope for promoting Newmarket as a London commuter dormitory with development of the rail service accordingly.

Stowmarket serves quite a large catchment area & has an extremely good and established train service. It has healthy commuter traffic to Ipswich, Bury & Norwich as well as the well used London services. On top of that it offers through trains to Peterborough.

It is also worth noting that Newmarket had a dreadful train service for years before NXEA introduced the hourly Cambridge Ipswich. Gaps of over 2 hours where commonplace with poor reliability & frequent use of single 153s. The service is now predominantly 170 operated & you can really see the increase in passengers every day.

 

[eastdyke]

Stowmarket serves quite a large catchment area & has an extremely good and established train service. It has healthy commuter traffic to Ipswich, Bury & Norwich as well as the well used London services. On top of that it offers through trains to Peterborough.

It is also worth noting that Newmarket had a dreadful train service for years before NXEA introduced the hourly Cambridge Ipswich. Gaps of over 2 hours where commonplace with poor reliability & frequent use of single 153s. The service is now predominantly 170 operated & you can really see the increase in passengers every day.

I agree about the (former) dreadful train service suffered by Newmarket before the NXEA improvement. Newmarket of course continues to suffer a dreadful station with pretty much zero facility as well.

The service to London KX that I was using as an example uses FCC for the greater part of the journey. Yet FCC has no operational interest in Newmarket.

The annual season from Newmarket to KX is only £376 more than from Cambridge and housing is far far less expensive.

As noted by evergreenadam in the previous post odd Geography is playing its part as well.

Transport Development at the local Government level seems to be vested in the County Council. As part of Suffolk, Newmarket gets nothing as all the London Rail options focus pretty much entirely on Ipswich as part of the GEML with feeders from the East Suffolk and Bury St. Edmunds.

The District Council (Forest Heath) does not seem to mention Railway Stations, let alone Rail Usage on it's website. It is one of the smallest DC's in the country (on a population basis), is Mildenhall based (no rail connection), and employment is dominated by USAF (Mildenhall / Lakenheath) and Horse Racing (Newmarket).

Who best to represent further rail development for Newmarket?

 

[dk1]

Newmarket station is more akin to the parking area in a cul-de-sac.

 

[306024]

Newmarket did at least see a 50% increase in the length of the platform recently

 

[30907]

Surely the main issue with Newmarket-London commuting is that it's far quicker to drive down the A11 to Great Chesterford on the GE line?

Agreed, Kings Cross has the better Cambridge service these days, but Newmarket-Cambs is pretty tedious even with its much improved service.

 

[eastdyke]

Surely the main issue with Newmarket-London commuting is that it's far quicker to drive down the A11 to Great Chesterford on the GE line?

Agreed, Kings Cross has the better Cambridge service these days, but Newmarket-Cambs is pretty tedious even with its much improved service.

Unless you have a time machine and can time your arrival to the second then no it is not! The season ticket price is £4160, an annual saving of just £752 compared with Newmarket. And you tie a car up for the whole day.

Journey times Gt Chesterford - London Liverpool Street are:
Up around 1hr 16 mins, down around 1 hr 10 mins.

How long does it take to drive from/to Newmarket / Gt Chesterford (a journey of over 15 miles)?

Anyways 'drive' is anathema to me!

 

[johnnyp_360]

How long does it take to drive from/to Newmarket / Gt Chesterford (a journey of over 15 miles)?

Anyways 'drive' is anathema to me!

At the moment, about 90 minutes due to road works on the A11! It's part of my commute.

 

[jopsuk]

With regards to Newmarket, Cambridge etc- there's considerable commuting to Cambridge itself- and this is going to increase, with large numbers of jobs coming to the city. increasing train length and frequency from Newmarket into Cambridge- ideally with a Cherry Hinton station and perhaps a Six Mile Bottom Parkway. If it was electrified, then extra trains could easily be extensions of existing Cambridge-London services

 

[306024]

You could build two new stations, but the Ipswich - Cambridge service is fixed where it is with tight turnround times at Cambridge, so it would be difficult to stop those. Without any track doubling all trains would have to pass at Dullingham, which then fixes where the extra trains can be pathed, and creates risk to performance.

Electrification, right across to Haughley Jn, may help if 4 car EMUs with Selective Door Operation could be put on Ipswich - Cambridge services, but wiring through Newmarket tunnel may be an issue, and lengthening the shorter platforms would add to the bill.

Don't disagree that there is considerable potential into Cambridge, 3 car 170s are required on peak workings now, but I wouldn't describe it as easy, or indeed cheap.

 

[MarkyT]

Without any track doubling all trains would have to pass at Dullingham, which then fixes where the extra trains can be pathed, and creates risk to performance

There's one weekday timetabled crossing of passenger trains in the morning at Dullingham. Otherwise the only other scheduled crossings there are for 3 freight Q paths which are all out from and back to Stowmarket Down Goods Loop, via 'everywhere in Anglia', presumably some kind of departmental/inspection workings. The Cambridge - Ipswich is already mostly self contained except for the odd Harwich working, and a notional Cambridge to Ely via Newmarket local service would also be self contained, so assuming it could be diagrammed in the first place, I wouldn't see a major problem scheduling many more passenger crossings at Dullingham. If either of these services were to form an extension of electric London commuter routes however then perhaps some additional double track provision would be advisable between Dullingham and Cambridge to mitigate delay propagation and provide more flexibility in scheduling.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely the main issue with Newmarket-London commuting is that it's far quicker to drive down the A11 to Great Chesterford on the GE line?

I think Whittlesford Pway is preferred, easy to get to, good parking, quicker trains to London (under an hour). I've certainly driven Newmarket- Whittlesford in 15 mins at that time of the morning, although it does depend which part of Newmarket you are starting from.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless you have a time machine and can time your arrival to the second then no it is not! ... And you tie a car up for the whole day.

But that is what almost everyone who drives and parks at any station does, it's not that unpopular or difficult a concept!

 

[eastdyke]

I think Whittlesford Pway is preferred, easy to get to, good parking, quicker trains to London (under an hour). I've certainly driven Newmarket- Whittlesford in 15 mins at that time of the morning, although it does depend which part of Newmarket you are starting from.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But that is what almost everyone who drives and parks at any station does, it's not that unpopular or difficult a concept!

I agree that Whittlesford Pkwy would be a better option than Gt Chesterford. I also fully understand the park and ride concept.

I was exploring the proposition of Newmarket as a commuter town. At a guess around a third of residents live within a mile of the Station. I live just over a mile from my Station (not Newmarket!) and manage quite well without a car. Walk and ride could be regarded as a more healthy option

In my very quick look at services and costs I think that I have established that, even with the current rail service, it is just about practicable to commute (to London) from Newmarket and it is certainly more economic than some other alternatives when housing costs are considered. My quick look also took no account of any parking costs. At a guess around £1250 p/a.

IMO rail use from Newmarket will continue to rise at a good rate.

 

[johnnyp_360]

No parking costs at Newmarket station car park at present. Even if they were brought in, there are plenty of free places to park around that part of town.

 

[evergreenadam]

I agree about the (former) dreadful train service suffered by Newmarket before the NXEA improvement. Newmarket of course continues to suffer a dreadful station with pretty much zero facility as well.

The service to London KX that I was using as an example uses FCC for the greater part of the journey. Yet FCC has no operational interest in Newmarket.

The annual season from Newmarket to KX is only £376 more than from Cambridge and housing is far far less expensive.

As noted by evergreenadam in the previous post odd Geography is playing its part as well.

Transport Development at the local Government level seems to be vested in the County Council. As part of Suffolk, Newmarket gets nothing as all the London Rail options focus pretty much entirely on Ipswich as part of the GEML with feeders from the East Suffolk and Bury St. Edmunds.

The District Council (Forest Heath) does not seem to mention Railway Stations, let alone Rail Usage on it's website. It is one of the smallest DC's in the country (on a population basis), is Mildenhall based (no rail connection), and employment is dominated by USAF (Mildenhall / Lakenheath) and Horse Racing (Newmarket).

Who best to represent further rail development for Newmarket?

I also feel Wisbech and March are in a similar predicament to Soham and Newmarket. Sizeable towns with either no rail service or no direct connection to London and both within the potential orbit of fast growing Cambridge. Reopening of the Wisbech branch and an extension of direct trains from London via March could be part of a wider Fenland rail improvement scheme with the Newmarket curve and new station at Soham, electrification and through London trains to Bury St Edmunds previously discussed in order to support a growing population. It was interesting to see that stations in the East of England region showed the greatest increase in passenger demand in 2012-13 by some margin in the recently released station usage statistics from the Rail Regulator. The figures for London which had a similar increase may have been affected by changes in the calculation of Freedom Pass entries and exits.

Suggested service pattern from London:
xx.00 8 cars KX to Ely, train divides, 4 cars continue to King's Lynn, 4 cars to Wisbech via March
xx.30 8 cars KX to Cambridge, train divides, 4 cars continue to King's Lynn, 4 cars to Bury St Edmunds/Ipswich(replacing Cambridge-Ipswich shuttle) or Ely via Soham (if not worked as a self contained service).

The extra revenue potential originating from March, Wisbech, Soham, Newmarket and Bury St Edmunds to Cambridge and London would be considerable. In fact 8 cars from Cambridge to King's Cross might not be sufficient during certain periods of the off-peak. Sufficient sections of Stowmarket-Peterborough would be electrified so as to only require infills to allow through electric trains to operate along the entire route from Ipswich-Peterborough.

 

[davetheguard]

There's one weekday timetabled crossing of passenger trains in the morning at Dullingham. Otherwise the only other scheduled crossings there are for 3 freight Q paths which are all out from and back to Stowmarket Down Goods Loop, via 'everywhere in Anglia', presumably some kind of departmental/inspection workings. The Cambridge - Ipswich is already mostly self contained except for the odd Harwich working, and a notional Cambridge to Ely via Newmarket local service would also be self contained, so assuming it could be diagrammed in the first place, I wouldn't see a major problem scheduling many more passenger crossings at Dullingham. If either of these services were to form an extension of electric London commuter routes however then perhaps some additional double track provision would be advisable between Dullingham and Cambridge to mitigate delay propagation and provide more flexibility in scheduling.

Was this line originally double track, and if so, when was it singled?

Obviously a double track formation makes it much easier and cheaper to redouble. I sometimes wish there was a railway atlas that not only shows whether single or multiple track, but single or multiple FORMATION.

 

[eastdyke]

Was this line originally double track, and if so, when was it singled?

Obviously a double track formation makes it much easier and cheaper to redouble. I sometimes wish there was a railway atlas that not only shows whether single or multiple track, but single or multiple FORMATION.

My own recollection of trips on the line in the late 1950's is of double track throughout (except of course for Newmarket tunnel). This is confirmed by a quick look at the OS 7th series maps of the day.

According to the Newmarket Local History Society the line was rationalised in the period 1980-5.

There is a very good local resume and some nice pictures on their website:

http://www.newmarketlhs.org.uk/lhs9.htm

PS How about re-opening the 1851 link from Six Mile Bottom to Great Chesterford? LOL

 

[johnnyp_360]

It looked like it was previously double track (excluding the tunnel). The track bed is most definitely wide enough. But now the track travels through the middle of the bed rather than just one side.

 

[Class 170101]

Suggested service pattern from London:
xx.00 8 cars KX to Ely, train divides, 4 cars continue to King's Lynn, 4 cars to Wisbech via March
xx.30 8 cars KX to Cambridge, train divides, 4 cars continue to King's Lynn, 4 cars to Bury St Edmunds/Ipswich(replacing Cambridge-Ipswich shuttle) or Ely via Soham (if not worked as a self contained service).

Leaving Kings Cross will never be xx:00 and xx:30 because East Coast has those and won't ever give them up.

However what you propose in principle is interesting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's one weekday timetabled crossing of passenger trains in the morning at Dullingham. Otherwise the only other scheduled crossings there are for 3 freight Q paths which are all out from and back to Stowmarket Down Goods Loop, via 'everywhere in Anglia', presumably some kind of departmental/inspection workings.

There are occasional Class 4 trains overnight. The Class 3 trains are 'squirty' trains and NR inspection track trains and weedkiller services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Electrification, right across to Haughley Jn, may help if 4 car EMUs with Selective Door Operation could be put on Ipswich - Cambridge services, but wiring through Newmarket tunnel may be an issue, and lengthening the shorter platforms would add to the bill.

Three car EMUs as a design are available - Class 380s Scotland.