Sod the passengers?

[Oswyntail]

Last night, Mrs O and I arrived at Leeds station at 21:50, for the 22:06 to Ilkley. The train was shown as "On time", and, indeed, the set was in the platform. The weather was chill but dry. Now, at present, for various reasons we can neither of us stand comfortably for more than a couple of minutes, or walk very fast, but we could stroll slowly to the front of the train and...
First of all, the doors remained firmly closed. Of course, there are no seats around (in case terrorists want to sit down, presumably), so there we were standing, uncomfortably. And they remained closed until 22:20, when a driver turned up. The platform was quite busy, but never once was there an announcement (except the "For your safety and comfort this is a non-smoking station" - well the station may have given up, but several of the waiting passengers hadn't, but there were no staff around to enforce any rules. And, if anyone was concerned about comfort, where were the seats for marginally disabled passengers?). The train did leave swiftly, but not once was there any announcement of why there was a delay, or, more critically, an apology. Nor was there any ticket inspection.
Now, I know there were probably 1001 legitimate reasons why the train was delayed, but:-

• Why was there no attempt to keep passengers informed, either over the tannoy or via platform staff? If someone had simply said "sorry" there would not have been a trainload of passengers vowing to drive next time.
• Why, if it is known that a train is going to be delayed, cannot someone be authorised simply to open the doors to let passengers sit down (particularly when there are no seats on the platform)? Even if the train is cancelled, or changed to a different set, the passengers can be moved and would be more willing to co-operate.
• Come to that, why are there so few seats around?

The impression that I came away with last night was that it was simply a case of "sod the passengers"

 

[merlodlliw]

I suppose some Company person will quote H & S, as he/she drives away
in the Company car.

 

[moonrakerz]

The impression that I came away with last night was that it was simply a case of "sod the passengers"

Don't you mean "sod the customers" ?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....

• Why was there no attempt to keep passengers informed, either over the tannoy or via platform staff? If someone had simply said "sorry" there would not have been a trainload of passengers vowing to drive next time.

• 
  
  I don't think there is an excuse for this to happen, there should be announcements for delays at all major stations and some form of communication at manned smaller stations.
  
  

  [*]Why, if it is known that a train is going to be delayed, cannot someone be authorised simply to open the doors to let passengers sit down (particularly when there are no seats on the platform)? Even if the train is cancelled, or changed to a different set, the passengers can be moved and would be more willing to co-operate.

  
  The only people allowed to open up the train are the guard and/or the driver (DOO mainly) of the train.
  
  I know of a time when Thameslink where diverted into St Pancras and a train was late due to a driver being delayed on another service. A member of platform staff took it upon themselves to open up the train they *thought* was to be used (it had been that train every occasion for the past eight weeks). However 'the management' had decided to utilise another train that day and he received the biggest rollocking of his life! Aside from the H&S issues, he should not have access to the door key and he shouldn't have ventured into the cab to release the doors in the first place!
  
  

  [*]Come to that, why are there so few seats around?

I can't say about every station, but at my local station, they won't put seats under the shelters as "it encourages loitering", however seats not five feet from the shelters are perfectly fine!

 

[Daimler]

This is something that happens far too often at Euston late in the evening - even in the middle of winter. People end up crowding round the doors waiting for someone to open them (often less than 5 minutes before departure time), before all trying to leap on board in an unseemly scrum as the doors are opened.

The only people allowed to open up the train are the guard and/or the driver (DOO mainly) of the train.

Is this really the case? Often at major termini, trains are left in the platform 20 minutes before they're due to go, with the doors open for passengers to board - surely the guard and driver aren't sitting on board for all that time (Certainly not the driver, as I often see them walking up to the cab a couple of minutes before departure time)?

If so, then the TOCs should have some sort of procedure in place whereby someone has authority to open the doors. It gives a terrible impression of the company when people can't even get on their train until a couple of minutes before departure - particularly in the middle of winter - it seems to demonstrate a lack of respect for the passenger, whatever the safety arguments are.

 

[Greenback]

In Swansea the Londoin train will sit at platform 2 for 40 minutes with all the doors open, while at platform 3 the Pembroke Dock service, also sitting there for 40 minutes, is locked.

Sadly, at night, the standard of customer information is often even lower than during the day. I suppose this is probably due to lower staffing levels.

 

[pendolino]

Is this really the case? Often at major termini, trains are left in the platform 20 minutes before they're due to go, with the doors open for passengers to board - surely the guard and driver aren't sitting on board for all that time (Certainly not the driver, as I often see them walking up to the cab a couple of minutes before departure time)?

Well, no, but if the train terminates at that station on a preceding service then the doors will be opened to allow passengers to alight when it arrives, and generally left open until it leaves on its next service.

Unless of course there's a need to close the doors in the interim, e.g., for attaching/detaching purposes, or if another service uses the same platform (permissive working) to terminate and depart again, in which case the doors will be closed on the first train so that passengers don't board the wrong unit.

 

[Oswyntail]

....The only people allowed to open up the train are the guard and/or the driver (DOO mainly) of the train....

This is what I suspected, and I can just about understand the reasoning. But there surely must be some way to authorise properly trained platform staff to open doors in these circumstances. It is just a case of focussing on passengers rather than pure operations.

 

[Failed Unit]

At Edinburgh Waverley you often get 1600 Edinburgh - Glasgow as the front 3 coaches and the 1603 Edinburgh - dunblane as the rear 2. The crew are all on board but won't open the doors of the rear one until the front one is gone to stop passengers that can't follow instructions getting on the wrong train.

Why I dont know as most Scotrail trains have internal destination boards so when stupid passenger sits down and see this train is for dunblane gives them a clue. So instead people going to Dunblane stand in the cold then need to board quickly.

The other thing I don't get is other platforms in the station are empty so why not put the Glasgow service on them to avoid the situation arising. I have seen it platform 14 empty, Glasgow train arrives at 1550 on 13, leaves at 1600 with platform 14 still empty (and most of the station)

But I often don't understand network rail at edinburgh. They have a habit of putting 2 car trains on 11 and forcing IC trains into 8&9 as a result when lots of platforms could have taken the unit!

 

[Firestarter]

I don't think there is an excuse for this to happen, there should be announcements for delays at all major stations and some form of communication at manned smaller stations.



The only people allowed to open up the train are the guard and/or the driver (DOO mainly) of the train.

I know of a time when Thameslink where diverted into St Pancras and a train was late due to a driver being delayed on another service. A member of platform staff took it upon themselves to open up the train they *thought* was to be used (it had been that train every occasion for the past eight weeks). However 'the management' had decided to utilise another train that day and he received the biggest rollocking of his life! Aside from the H&S issues, he should not have access to the door key and he shouldn't have ventured into the cab to release the doors in the first place!

Most rail staff on employment are issued with a certain key which can be used to open various things including internal cab doors.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Is this really the case? Often at major termini, trains are left in the platform 20 minutes before they're due to go, with the doors open for passengers to board - surely the guard and driver aren't sitting on board for all that time (Certainly not the driver, as I often see them walking up to the cab a couple of minutes before departure time)?

If so, then the TOCs should have some sort of procedure in place whereby someone has authority to open the doors. It gives a terrible impression of the company when people can't even get on their train until a couple of minutes before departure - particularly in the middle of winter - it seems to demonstrate a lack of respect for the passenger, whatever the safety arguments are.

As has been mentioned train doors are often left open after the train has arrived at it's destination if it is due to form another service.

As for the staff being with the train, it depends on the scenario. Having worked as a trainee driver for Thameslink, I found it was very much a case of turn round times and which trains I was due to work.

For example, during the 9 month London blockade, trains from Bedford terminated at St Pancras, some trains had five minute turn-arounds, others 20 minutes, but in 90% of cases the same driver would work the train back (usually meaning the driver changed ends and made a cup of tea before departure). However some trains were worked by drivers who then proceeded to Kings Cross Thameslink to work a train to Brighton or Sutton, with another driver doing the opposite, thus meaning the driver could turn up only a couple of minutes before departure, although the doors would've been left open.

Most rail staff on employment are issued with a certain key which can be used to open various things including internal cab doors.

Really? because the only non on-train staff that I can say definately have door keys, had not received them from the TOC they worked for!

 

[spacehopper]

I don't think that it is a case of "sod" the customers. I totally understand the passengers perspective on things. When I'm not at work my mindset does so easily revert to that of a normal punter. Its cold, why isn't that train open, bad customer service to leave us waiting on the platform.

However from the staff side of the fence I know that we don't do it on purpose just to peeve off the customer.

On our diagrams we are booked to "dispose" of a set. This means that once we arrive at a certain terminus. We wait until all punters are off, walk through the set, picking up litter, tidy the saloon, check for lost property, unattended items, change the blinds then lock the set up.

We then go for our PNB or have finished our shift.

In some cases while the set is locked up a cleaner will board and empty the bins, wipe the tables and clear any mess up in the toilet.

Also while the set is berthed a "not to be moved" board will be placed on the unit. This can be because of fitters working on the unit so nothing can be touched including the doors. On our services the board normally indicates that the toilets are being tanked.

Network Rail also insist that unit remains locked at some locations due to problems with toilets emptying on the track. On some units you cant actually lock a toilet out of use. Nothing to stop someone heading straight to the toilet once the doors have been opened mind.

Main reason I was told that we have to lock up is because of "TRANSEC" requirements. That if a set is left unlocked and unattended for a period of more than 20 minutes- somebody has to go through and do a "security check". I was told this by management and that if sets were to be left open extra time would have to be put into diagrams to cover this check which would unbalance the links and they'd have to employ more staff. (bearing in mind that the company got rid of our RO2s years ago).

Another reason we used to have to keep sets locked was the trolley. In some circumstances it would be left unattended on the set and stock could go missing. The set up is different now with trolleys coming off but we used to have to keep set locked until trolley staff returned.

With assets being sweated and very tight turnarounds sets aren't left standing long enough to be locked. In these cases you won't see just one cleaner board but three or four so the set can be cleaned in minutes. This applies more to suburban side though.

If a set has been standing for a certain amount of time then we are booked to do a prep and sometimes a door test. Something you can't do with passengers on. Also the set has to build up air which can take a few minutes. You can't open the doors if there isn't air in the system. We also have to carry out a brake test again something that can't be done with the doors open.

So you can see that there are many reasons why a train can be locked up while you are crowded around waiting for the doors to be open. Obviously this varies from toc to toc, station to station but one size doesn't fit all. Then again half the time we are shunted out into the sidings so you'd still be waiting on a cold platform but you don't have the psychological factor of so close yet so cold. Nobody likes waiting when they can't see a reason why they should wait.

 

[90019]

At Edinburgh Waverley you often get 1600 Edinburgh - Glasgow as the front 3 coaches and the 1603 Edinburgh - dunblane as the rear 2. The crew are all on board but won't open the doors of the rear one until the front one is gone to stop passengers that can't follow instructions getting on the wrong train.

Not all passengers are bright enough to know that though, even when told by staff.
I was waiting for the 1603 a few weeks back, and a load of guys asked a member of staff if that was the glasgow train, they were told the front 3 coaches, so walked to the front of the 158 and tried to open the doors, which they kept doing until they realised it was the 170 as it disappeared out of the station

They do sometimes have the 158 open as well though.

Why I dont know as most Scotrail trains have internal destination boards so when stupid passenger sits down and see this train is for dunblane gives them a clue. So instead people going to Dunblane stand in the cold then need to board quickly.

They're not always on though, sometimes they don't switch on until the train is about to leave.

 

[Statto]

It happened to me a couple of weeks ago, i was at Liverpool Lime Street waiting for the EMT 1:52 Norwich express to Widnes, i arrived on the platform just over 10 min before the train was to depart, the train was at the platform, with staff inside the train, chatting to each other, rather than clearing litter from the train. The train staff eventually let everyone board the train 4 minutes before it was to depart.

 

[Pacerpilot]

In Swansea the Londoin train will sit at platform 2 for 40 minutes with all the doors open, while at platform 3 the Pembroke Dock service, also sitting there for 40 minutes, is locked.

Sadly, at night, the standard of customer information is often even lower than during the day. I suppose this is probably due to lower staffing levels.

This is due to the HST being serviced and restocked during the layover prior to its return to London. The dock service is booked to be immobilised at Swansea while its crew take their PNB and god forbid they should leave it unlocked whilst unattended.
Additionally, it keeps passengers for the request stops off the Dock service and ensures they catch the Carmarthen/Milford services which stop at Gowerton/Kidwelly/Ferryside which depart before the Dock.

 

[Greenback]

This is due to the HST being serviced and restocked during the layover prior to its return to London. The dock service is booked to be immobilised at Swansea while its crew take their PNB and god forbid they should leave it unlocked whilst unattended.

That's what I suspected, thanks for confirming!

Additionally, it keeps passengers for the request stops off the Dock service and ensures they catch the Carmarthen/Milford services which stop at Gowerton/Kidwelly/Ferryside which depart before the Dock.

I always thought one of the reasons for not opening up the Dock service is to ensure that those who wanted Carmarthen and Llanelli got the faster service! It's the PD train that usually calls at Gowerton, Kidwelly and Ferryside. although some of the Manchester's do also make calls there.

If the proposals for Carmarthen/Milford trains at xx35 and the Dock trains at alternate xx05 hours go through, then that will be the end of any passenger confusion over the two trains going West five minutes apart!

I can understand why people want the doors to be open so they can at least get on the train while it's sitting there. It's also easy to see why they are bemused that some trains can be boarded when others are left locked up!

 

[bluenoxid]

Last night, Mrs O and I arrived at Leeds station at 21:50, for the 22:06 to Ilkley. The train was shown as "On time", and, indeed, the set was in the platform. The weather was chill but dry. Now, at present, for various reasons we can neither of us stand comfortably for more than a couple of minutes, or walk very fast, but we could stroll slowly to the front of the train and...
First of all, the doors remained firmly closed. Of course, there are no seats around (in case terrorists want to sit down, presumably), so there we were standing, uncomfortably. And they remained closed until 22:20, when a driver turned up. The platform was quite busy, but never once was there an announcement (except the "For your safety and comfort this is a non-smoking station" - well the station may have given up, but several of the waiting passengers hadn't, but there were no staff around to enforce any rules. And, if anyone was concerned about comfort, where were the seats for marginally disabled passengers?). The train did leave swiftly, but not once was there any announcement of why there was a delay, or, more critically, an apology. Nor was there any ticket inspection.
Now, I know there were probably 1001 legitimate reasons why the train was delayed, but:-

• Why was there no attempt to keep passengers informed, either over the tannoy or via platform staff? If someone had simply said "sorry" there would not have been a trainload of passengers vowing to drive next time.
• Why, if it is known that a train is going to be delayed, cannot someone be authorised simply to open the doors to let passengers sit down (particularly when there are no seats on the platform)? Even if the train is cancelled, or changed to a different set, the passengers can be moved and would be more willing to co-operate.
• Come to that, why are there so few seats around?

The impression that I came away with last night was that it was simply a case of "sod the passengers"

Two reason that I don't think have been mentioned so far.

Lack of announcements are possibly due to local residents complaining about noise levels. They are cut at 10pm as a result.

Train doors are not opened because if an emergency was to happen on board, nobody would realise. The most significant is a fire underneath the train. You know how "dumb" passengers can be, so the risk is mitigated by keeping train doors shut.

Lack of seats, take it up with Network Rail.

 

[Flamingo]

In Swansea the Londoin train will sit at platform 2 for 40 minutes with all the doors open, while at platform 3 the Pembroke Dock service, also sitting there for 40 minutes, is locked.

Sadly, at night, the standard of customer information is often even lower than during the day. I suppose this is probably due to lower staffing levels.

With power doors it is easier to lock them all, and the train is easier to check as it will be two or three cars.

The cleaners will be going through the HST, also the crew will probably be on board in the buffet, catering order will be arriving, the train is more "active" than the DMU which is not supposed to be left unsecured for security reasons.

(If I was you, I'd go sit on the HST until the Pembroke train was ready! )

Anyway, Swansea is getting a fancy new waiting room, which will be open in time for the summer. What are you complaining about!!

 

[Greenback]

With power doors it is easier to lock them all, and the train is easier to check as it will be two or three cars.

The cleaners will be going through the HST, also the crew will probably be on board in the buffet, catering order will be arriving, the train is more "active" than the DMU which is not supposed to be left unsecured for security reasons.

(If I was you, I'd go sit on the HST until the Pembroke train was ready! )

Anyway, Swansea is getting a fancy new waiting room, which will be open in time for the summer. What are you complaining about!!

I'm not complaining at all! In fact, you'd usually find me outside having a smoke rather than waiting on the platform! I just hear some people moaning and whingeing as I go past to board the Carmarthen/Milford train!

 

[Pacerpilot]

I'm not complaining at all! In fact, you'd usually find me outside having a smoke rather than waiting on the platform! I just hear some people moaning and whingeing as I go past to board the Carmarthen/Milford train!

You should come say hello next time...cant miss me, handsome devil with a daft a haircut, sat at the pointy end....

Further your earlier post, the request stops have been taken off some of the Dock services and added to the Milford/Manchester services. Its not too much of an issue for the up trains but It can be a right pain for the driver of the Down Dock. We depart 5 mintues after the Down Milford and then end up waiting at Ferryside for the Ferryside-Carmarthen Section to become clear. No doubt planning have a good reason for it. I cant think of one myself.

 

[Greenback]

You should come say hello next time...cant miss me, handsome devil with a daft a haircut, sat at the pointy end....

Further your earlier post, the request stops have been taken off some of the Dock services and added to the Milford/Manchester services. Its not too much of an issue for the up trains but It can be a right pain for the driver of the Down Dock. We depart 5 mintues after the Down Milford and then end up waiting at Ferryside for the Ferryside-Carmarthen Section to become clear. No doubt planning have a good reason for it. I cant think of one myself.

That is a strange thing for them to do. I must admit I hadn't noticed that had happened! It does make a bit of a mockery of having two trains in five minutes if the first one stops and the second one catches up!

On another note, I have wondered why bioth the 1055 and 1129 from Llanelli stop at Gowerton!

 

[Pacerpilot]

Its gotten to the point where I just think they've used a tombola to select the stopping patterns. So much for the standard pattern timetable, that soon fell by the wayside eh?

The new pattern works ok if the Milford/Carmarthen has no passengers for the Request stops.

 

[moonrakerz]

if the train terminates at that station on a preceding service then the doors will be opened to allow passengers to alight when it arrives, and generally left open until it leaves on its next service.

As has been mentioned train doors are often left open after the train has arrived at it's destination if it is due to form another service.

That would not seem to be the case in my experience. The train I use most often to a terminus station is the Bristol to Waterloo service by SWT.
At both ends of that run the doors are ALWAYS shut after the passengers have alighted and are only re-opened about 10 minutes before departure. Yes - it does help the SWT staff who give the train a quick clean and empty the bins (only at Waterloo), but long after they have gone the train is still locked and empty.
They do shut and lock the doors at Salisbury but that is only while the Exeter portion is attached/detached.
At Temple Meads the driver is usually seen sitting in First Class with a cup of coffee with waiting passengers locked out on the platform - I certainly don't begrudge him his coffee, but why can't I sit down ?

To link this to another thread regarding lack of seating at stations - At Waterloo, the Bristol service (nearly !) always uses the same platform so I always go through the barriers and wait for the doors to be opened before the platform is announced on the departures board. Why ? because there are seats on the platform which are ALWAYS unused, whereas finding an empty seat on the main concourse is as rare as finding a pile of rocking horse manure !

It may not be a deliberate "sod the passengers", but a bit of thought might help.

 

[Anvil1984]

If its a DMU, the reasons they are usually locked out are as follows

If booked to sit for 20 mins or longer and a change of crew then we have to for security reasons.
If it sits there for 15 mins or more then the engine will go out and depending on the trains batteries (which arent the best) the train will plunge into darkness (with more effect on an avening), your not supposed to leave the key in for security reasons
If its sat there for a while then it will need a static power and brake test, because they lose air rapidly unlike most DMU's and that tends to be done last 5/10 minutes before departure so theres no surprises when it comes to go time. (Doors have to be closed for this otherwise the brake will remain in emergency throughout and you wont get power)

Theres plenty more but I've just woke up

 

[moonrakerz]

If its a DMU, the reasons they are usually locked out are as follows

159s. Thanks for the very complete answer !

 

[driverchris52]

I never cease to be amazed by the different standards in operation around the country. At the London terminus I work into, station staff will routinely open up and start units if it is called for and there are certainly no time limit's on how long the doors can be left open on a train. Perhaps it reflects on the slightly more laid back outlook I think we have.

 

[Railjet]

I'm glad that some staff take a more enlightened view about this and show some common sense.

I was at Marylebone in the week before Christmas waiting for the 16:30 WSMR. It was delayed - we were informed - because the crew were coming down from Wrexham on VT and were held up at Crewe, because of the bad weather. At about 16:40, the train arrived in the platform (from Wembley CS). It was announced that the crew had arrived at Euston and would be at Marylebone in about 15 minutes. Luckily, a sensible Chiltern staff member unlocked the doors to let the passengers board (it was packed).

I'm baffled as to why this should be prevented by H&S rules. Top marks to Chiltern for keeping the passengers informed and doing the sensible thing. I also noticed the camaraderie between the Chiltern and WSMR staff when the latter arrived - the Chiltern staff doing what they could to help out to get the train off quickly.