Snowsports equipment could be banned from ScotRail trains

[Adlington]

The Strathspey Herald reports an unconfirmed restriction on any item longer than one metre on ScotRail services.

There are claims that ScotRail is no longer allowing passengers to carry any item longer than one metre on their train services.

The move has been described as an 'absurd piece of pettifogging bureaucracy' by Strathspey MSP Fergus Ewing.

He fears that it will have a major knock-on effect for the carriage of snowsports equipment for those heading to the Cairngorms by rail and for locals usually taking the train to airports for overseas ski holidays.

Kind of related to this thread....

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's already the case assuming they follow NR standards, but it is silly as skis and snowboards easily fit the overheads. The Swiss meanwhile provide dedicated racks.

If we're serious about people giving up cars, public transport needs to up its game.

 

[zwk500]

It's already the case assuming they follow NR standards, but it is silly as skis and snowboards easily fit the overheads. The Swiss meanwhile provide dedicated racks.

If we're serious about people giving up cars, public transport needs to up its game.

Ski holidays aren't exactly a central part of a modal transfer strategy, although I do agree that it's silly to ban things on arbitrary lengths when quite clearly you can fit people's ski's side by side in the same space that 1m per person would give you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ski holiday's aren't exactly a central part of a modal transfer strategy, although I do agree that it's silly to ban things on arbitrary lengths when quite clearly you can fit people's ski's side by side in the same space that 1m per person would give you.

If we want people to give up cars then pretty much everything needs non car provision of some kind.

The approach of setting a maximum based on all three dimensions summed up (several couriers do this) tends to work in this sort of context.

 

[zwk500]

If we want people to give up cars then pretty much everything needs non car provision of some kind.

We're never going to get to a 100% coverage solution wihtout serious institutional change in the UK. Focus on the core carbon producing flows, leave the marginal stuff for later.

The approach of setting a maximum based on all three dimensions summed up (several couriers do this) tends to work in this sort of context.

Or just have 'don't be a prat' as a policy. Appreciate that in these litigating days a formal definition does need to be laid down, so I'd specify 'must fit in the racks without overhang (h x d), total volume no more than 'X'L.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Don't be a prat" has served in practice for years (even Virgin used to just say "don't bring more than you can carry alone"). Lumo seem to have started a process of the railway being more officious about it.

 

[Adlington]

I'd specify 'must fit in the racks without overhang (h x d)

A minor issue: not all train racks are of the same size/capacity.

 

[TPO]

If we want people to give up cars then pretty much everything needs non car provision of some kind.

The approach of setting a maximum based on all three dimensions summed up (several couriers do this) tends to work in this sort of context.

Maybe there is also the intention that we give up things like ski holidays too. After all we lived without them (unless you were rich) in the 1950's.......

The whole net zero malarkey is about less of everything. Not just about fewer cars.

TPO

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe there is also the intention that we give up things like ski holidays too. After all we lived without them (unless you were rich) in the 1950's.......

The whole net zero malarkey is about less of everything. Not just about fewer cars.

TPO

I don't want to live in your neopuritanical future. And I don't even ski.

 

[Starmill]

Focus on the core carbon producing flows, leave the marginal stuff for later.

A sensible idea, but unfortunately we're achieving abysmal public transport market shares even for those things. For example new high rise car parks are still being built in city centres. Nearly all new housing in the whole country comes with parking spaces, or is located such that you can't reasonably live there without a car. Long-distance rail travel is generally more expensive than use of budget airlines. Etc.

 

[TPO]

I don't want to live in your neopuritanical future. And I don't even ski.

I didn't say it was MY (preferred) future. But it's the future the country has signed up to.

Like it or not, the engineering and physical reality is what it is. The ICE car has made massive changes in society that we've becomes accustomed to, and when we don't have ICE cars cheaply and easily available any more, it has implications. Only a small %age of all journeys are made by rail, even pre-COVID that was the case. Yet the railway was basically "full" then with record passenger mileage.

The railway on its own can never meet demand for a level of travel which is the same as what we have with ICE cars (albeit with massive investment it could get much closer than it currently is).

I'd like to see massive rail investment- starting with 100% electrification and more local metro schemes.

But if we want people to give up cars, we will also need to be honest with them that in most cases, they will not have the level of freedom of travel with the car-replacement that they currently have with an ICE car.

TPO

 

[Facing Back]

I don't want to live in your neopuritanical future. And I don't even ski.

lol - I agree

 

[43066]

The Strathspey Herald reports an unconfirmed restriction on any item longer than one metre on ScotRail services.

Kind of related to this thread....

I’d ask the question why? Presumably they feel it benefits their “regular” customers? In which case, I’d support it.

I don't want to live in your neopuritanical future. And I don't even ski.

Yet you’re the one seemingly advocating people being “encouraged” (does that really mean compelled?) to give up cars!

I didn't say it was MY (preferred) future. But it's the future the country has signed up to.

I sincerely hope not. We need a more sensible approach to green issues in this country, which perhaps means prioritising economic growth, rather than making already hard up people poorer. Sadly, with a Labour government, I doubt we will get one.

lol - I agree

There has to be a limit of how many ski holidays you can go on before you decide, I can’t actually do it, and it’s a huge waste of money? I think I’m up to three*…

On the bright side, I was never good enough to buy my own skis, so it was simple flights and transfers!

*none of which were in Scotland, funnily enough.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Maybe there is also the intention that we give up things like ski holidays too. After all we lived without them (unless you were rich) in the 1950's.......

The whole net zero malarkey is about less of everything. Not just about fewer cars.

TPO

I though Scotrail had a pool of class 153's to cart the winter sports gear around, or have they gone because of net zero?

 

[Facing Back]

I’d ask the question why? Presumably they feel it benefits their “regular” customers? In which case, I’d support it.

If a train services a ski resort, who are their "regular customers" during the season? (I have no idea how many skiers use the train in Scotland) but surely its a reasonable expectation that on those routes you can bring your skis - or at least strap them to the roof-rack on top of the train?

Is there a problem looking for a solution here? Are the trains so busy that the army of brightly clad skiers with there ski, snowboard and boot bags causes issues or is this just a generic policy which is never enforced and probably should be caveated as this is the world that we live in?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

There has to be a limit of how many ski holidays you can go on before you decide, I can’t actually do it, and it’s a huge waste of money? I think I’m up to three*…

On the bright side, I was never good enough to buy my own skis, so it was simple flights and transfers!

*none of which were in Scotland, funnily enough.

I'll take your challenge. I drove from Manchester to Verbier, with my brand new skis, broke my ankle walking home from the pub on the first evening (before we did any skiiing) and had to have the car shipped home as I couldn't drive it and my partner at the time couldn't drive at all.

They are in the garage, never used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

We need a more sensible approach to green issues in this country, which perhaps means prioritising economic growth, rather than making already hard up people poorer. Sadly, with a Labour government, I doubt we will get one.

I completely agree. I could go on at length about this, but its massively off topic so I won't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a train services a ski resort, who are their "regular customers" during the season? (I have no idea how many skiers use the train in Scotland) but surely its a reasonable expectation that on those routes you can bring your skis - or at least strap them to the roof-rack on top of the train?

Is there a problem looking for a solution here? Are the trains so busy that the army of brightly clad skiers with there ski, snowboard and boot bags causes issues or is this just a generic policy which is never enforced and probably should be caveated as this is the world that we live in?

I can see why surfboards are a problem on GWR, because they're quite big. Though I think they should be allowed in the cycle space if booked as a cycle provided they aren't bigger than would fit.

I just can't see why skis or snowboards would be any kind of problem. They're thin and shallow and easily go in the overheads. Meanwhile boots are just a normal small-suitcase-sized piece of luggage. I think they're something I would see the sense in specifying as allowed provided they are bagged. And a ski-pole is just another kind of walking stick (and many fold or telescope anyway).

 

[Facing Back]

I can see why surfboards are a problem on GWR, because they're quite big. Though I think they should be allowed in the cycle space if booked as a cycle provided they aren't bigger than would fit.

I just can't see why skis or snowboards would be any kind of problem. They're thin and shallow and easily go in the overheads. Meanwhile boots are just a normal small-suitcase-sized piece of luggage. I think they're something I would see the sense in specifying as allowed provided they are bagged. And a ski-pole is just another kind of walking stick (and many fold or telescope anyway).

Surfboards - advertise quiet off-peak services as surf friendly to retain the business.

I'm guessing that they are not a huge problem on Scotrail....?

 

[joncombe]

I can see why surfboards are a problem on GWR, because they're quite big. Though I think they should be allowed in the cycle space if booked as a cycle provided they aren't bigger than would fit.

GWR used to put an extra carriage on some of the Newquay HSTs specifically for carrying surfboards. What about golf clubs too? Are they longer than this 1metre? I've certainly seen passengers with golf clubs on trains and golf is very popular in Scotland.

 

[Facing Back]

GWR used to put an extra carriage on some of the Newquay HSTs specifically for carrying surfboards. What about golf clubs too? Are they longer than this 1metre? I've certainly seen passengers with golf clubs on trains and golf is very popular in Scotland.

More popular than surfing - good point. I've certainly seen golf clubs carried on trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More popular than surfing - good point. I've certainly seen golf clubs carried on trains.

A golf bag according to Google is typically about 1.3m high. Not ridiculous in the scheme of things though it is over the 1m.

Edit: I've just read what the National Rail site says, and it's not quite what I thought it was. It says this:

Items larger than 1 metre in any dimension that you cannot carry without assistance. This includes canoes, hang-gliders, large furniture and large musical instruments
(https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/on-the-train/luggage/)

Clearly a skier will be able to carry skis without assistance, as they're going to have a job getting to the top of the run otherwise. Thus according to this they are not banned. Same with golf bags.

Surfboards, by contrast, are explicitly banned (even those very small ones that are under 1m long, technically, unless you'd say a bodyboard wasn't a surfboard rather than being a subclass of surfboard).

Though there's then:

Any animal or article which may cause inconvenience to passengers due to its size or behaviour.

...which is a bit open to interpretation - are some guards perhaps thinking a pair of skis may do that if the carrier is a bit negligent and belts someone round the head with them?

The NRCoT actually says something completely different, and places skis and golf bags at the discretion of the TOC...

23. Taking Luggage and Other Articles with You on Your Journey

23.1 You may take up to three items of luggage into the passenger accommodation of a
train unless:
23.1.1 your luggage is such that it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance
or it may cause damage to property;
23.1.2 there is not enough room for it;
23.1.3 your luggage would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;
23.1.4 the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains;
23.1.5 your luggage is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner;
23.1.6 your luggage is one of the prohibited items shown in the list shown in
23.4 below;
23.1.7 a Train Company has set out any special conditions relating to the carrying
of luggage on their own train services. In such cases these conditions will
be made available when buying your Ticket in advance and will be shown
on the Train Company’s website.

23.2 You will normally need to be able to manage your luggage without additional help;
however, if you have a disability and require assistance, you can book this in advance
of your journey. Please see Condition 21 for more information.

23.3 Articles may be conveyed in separate luggage accommodation, where this is
available, on the train service. Articles conveyed in such accommodation must for
security reasons be clearly labelled with your name, address and destination
station. Train company staff may not release items stored in separate luggage
accommodation to you until you have proved ownership.

23.4 Conditions relating to the carriage of specific items:

ITEM CONDITIONS

Pushchairs/Carrycots. Must be capable of folding

Wheelchairs and powered
wheelchairs.
Wheelchairs must be folded unless in use
and located in a section designated for
wheelchairs where provided.
They are conveyed subject to a
maximum width of 70cm and length of
120cm.

23.5 Items only permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies:
ITEM
Mobility Scooters.
e-Scooters
Canoes; surfboards; sailboards.
Skis and ski-boards; golf equipment; other sports equipment except where shown
as not permitted below.
Musical Instruments exceeding these dimensions, 30 x 70 x 90 cm
Unloaded firearms, properly licensed, with prior permission of the Train Company
and carried in accordance with the law and any other specific instructions

23.6 Items that are not permitted to be carried on passenger trains:
ITEM
Motorcycles; mopeds; motor scooters
Furniture exceeding these dimensions, 30 x 70 x 90 cm
Firearms (except as shown above)
Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives

Interestingly this doesn't mention a size for anything other than wheelchairs, musical instruments and furniture, and those specifically are limited to 30 x 70 x 90cm and not one metre!

What an utter mess.

 

[Ediswan]

Interestingly this doesn't mention a size for anything other than wheelchairs, musical instruments and furniture, and those specifically are limited to 30 x 70 x 90cm and not one metre!

There is also a size limit on pet carriers, but a different one, 85 x 60 x 60 cm.

What an utter mess.

Agreed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Clearly a skier will be able to carry skis without assistance, as they're going to have a job getting to the top of the run otherwise. Thus according to this they are not banned. Same with golf bags.

The usual practice is to put your skis on at the bottom of the run and get pulled up by a ski-tow. You don't take them off and carry them up after each descent as your boots would get clogged up with snow and ice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The usual practice is to put your skis on at the bottom of the run and get pulled up by a ski-tow. You don't take them off and carry them up after each descent as your boots would get clogged up with snow and ice!

And you get your skis to the bottom of the lift how?

 

[Sheridan]

And you get your skis to the bottom of the lift how?

By skiing down, presumably?

 

[zwk500]

The usual practice is to put your skis on at the bottom of the run and get pulled up by a ski-tow. You don't take them off and carry them up after each descent as your boots would get clogged up with snow and ice!

But the point is that there are plenty of occasions when you *are* expected to carry your skis unassisted during a Ski Holiday, and therefore having a policy of 'Skis permitted if you can handle them yourself' is not unreasonable on a train.

 

[Ken X]

The present Mrs X is of the Swiss persuasion so we have spent some time in the country. The convention seems to be to stow your skis in the racks provided and wear your boots on the train. Quite amusing to see everybody lurching around in very rigid ski boots.
It was not uncommon to see the ski racks stuffed with rifles if the local military was on manoeuvres which caused problems when they forgot and left them behind.. When we were there it got up to an average of two rifles a month in lost property. Must have been an interesting conversation with the OC.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But the point is that there are plenty of occasions when you *are* expected to carry your skis unassisted during a Ski Holiday, and therefore having a policy of 'Skis permitted if you can handle them yourself' is not unreasonable on a train.

Unless you're a VERY frequent skier you'll just hire them. Particularly if there's a long journey between your home and the ski resort.

For those regulars who own their own skis, I agree that being able to stow them safely on trains is an advantage. However for the ski-resorts in Scotland the numbers wishing to do this will be infinitesimally small, so shouldn't really be a major deciding factor when considering what facilities to provide on board trains. That said, I'm sure it isn't beyond the wit of man to put a few ski-racks in the Scotrail 'Active Travel' 153s.

 

[zwk500]

Unless you're a VERY frequent skier you'll just hire them. Particularly if there's a long journey between your home and the ski resort.

For those regulars who own their own skis, I agree that being able to stow them safely on trains is an advantage. However for the ski-resorts in Scotland the numbers wishing to do this will be infinitesimally small, so shouldn't really be a major deciding factor when considering what facilities to provide on board trains. That said, I'm sure it isn't beyond the wit of man to put a few ski-racks in the Scotrail 'Active Travel' 153s.

Skis will fit in the ordinary overhead trays though. As you say, the numbers are so small that providing specific facilities for them is not worth it, but banning them is ridiculous when 2 sets of skis side by side are not going to be causing a problem.

 

[Bevan Price]

What is snow ??
(British child's question in 30 years from now)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Skis will fit in the ordinary overhead trays though. As you say, the numbers are so small that providing specific facilities for them is not worth it, but banning them is ridiculous when 2 sets of skis side by side are not going to be causing a problem.

I agree that a ban is unnecessary in my opinion, particularly considering how infrequently it'll need to be enforced.