SNJP

[London99]

a month ago, i was on the bus, and used a normal blue oyster card. An inspector came and asked to see my ticket and which I presented my oyster card. he then asked for a photocard, which i was confused by. He has said this is not a normal oyster card and that it is a discounted photocard. This is a just a regular oyster I responded. He said no this has to come with a photocard. I said I'm sorry I'm not aware of this and this is just a card my dad gave me as my bank card, which I normally use for TFL, was not working as I did not have enough money. He then took possession of my oyster and made me give my details and told me I will receive a letter. Fast forward I got summoned for a SNJP. My defense is that it was an honest mistake and that my dad who is 71 year old has a freedom pass, and since i was in a rush and didn't have any money on my bank card, he just told me to take that oyster as it was a spare one he had. When i asked him why did you give me that card, he had no knowledge of it being discounted, he just thought it was an ordinary card just like a general blue oyster. Do i plead guilty or not guilty and what how do i proceed. This is my first tfl offence. Furthermore i had also had an issue a year ago with the west midlands train as i accidently used a railcard which expired when i was at uni. this case ended with me paying a fine and that was the case closed.
My question is how do i procced and will they bring up that case. I got proof of my bank statment with me paying all the correct tfl payment when i go to work.
Whats my best option

 

[furlong]

Well it's going to be necessary to work out exactly what the problem with the card was. Presumably there was no photo on the Oyster card because you were being asked for a separate photocard. Try to find out as much as you can e.g. can your dad access details about it online, registering if necessary? Are there any old emails or letters about the Oyster card? What exactly do the SJP papers say was wrong with it? What is the charge? Maybe upload pictures of the relevant parts of the paperwork you've got, covering up personal details.

In other words, exactly what bus fare discount are we talking about? How much money would have been saved on the journey by using it?

For the West Midlands situation, try to remember or look up precisely how that was handled. Did you pay ' Penalty Fare'? Did did you pay them a sum of money in response to a letter threatening prosecution? Were you actually prosecuted with a similar SJPN? Or what? Roughly how much money did you pay (which is a big clue to what happened)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

(We need to understand if this was an actual situation where you underpaid the bus fare, or a situation where they think you may have underpaid other fares but not the bus fare, or if it's purely a technicality breaching the conditions of use but not actually depriving them of any money.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Had you used the card for any other non-bus journeys already or was it only the one bus journey?
Does your dad have a Senior Railcard he might have linked to the Oyster card recently?
Has he had the Oyster card for very many years and perhaps linked a long-since-expired railcard to it in the distant past?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Also do you have a railcard - if so, which type and did you have it with you at the time?

 

[Haywain]

Furthermore i had also had an issue a year ago with the west midlands train as i accidently used a railcard which expired when i was at uni. this case ended with me paying a fine and that was the case closed.

This is completely irrelevant to any issue you have with TfL.

 

[Pushpit]

Did it look like a conventional Oyster card, with no photo on it? It sounds to me like an Oyster with a national railcard attached to it, which is a logical link. As far as I know the Freedom Cards have a big red ribbon design across them, a clear reference to "London Councils" and a photo in the bottom left corner. There is confusingly an Oyster 60+ card, but it says this clearly on the front and a photo top right.

If you can register that card via TfL then you can delve into the precise set-up online.

 

[London99]

Well it's going to be necessary to work out exactly what the problem with the card was. Presumably there was no photo on the Oyster card because you were being asked for a separate photocard. Try to find out as much as you can e.g. can your dad access details about it online, registering if necessary? Are there any old emails or letters about the Oyster card? What exactly do the SJP papers say was wrong with it? What is the charge? Maybe upload pictures of the relevant parts of the paperwork you've got, covering up personal details.

In other words, exactly what bus fare discount are we talking about? How much money would have been saved on the journey by using it?

For the West Midlands situation, try to remember or look up precisely how that was handled. Did you pay ' Penalty Fare'? Did did you pay them a sum of money in response to a letter threatening prosecution? Were you actually prosecuted with a similar SJPN? Or what? Roughly how much money did you pay (which is a big clue to what happened)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

(We need to understand if this was an actual situation where you underpaid the bus fare, or a situation where they think you may have underpaid other fares but not the bus fare, or if it's purely a technicality breaching the conditions of use but not actually depriving them of any money.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Had you used the card for any other non-bus journeys already or was it only the one bus journey?
Does your dad have a Senior Railcard he might have linked to the Oyster card recently?
Has he had the Oyster card for very many years and perhaps linked a long-since-expired railcard to it in the distant past?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Also do you have a railcard - if so, which type and did you have it with you at the time?

no it was just a normal blue oyster card. but when he scanned it with his machine apparently it was a discounted half price oyster card. i just asked my dad and he just said he doesnt remember and he said found it on the floor one day and kept it on him just as a spare card. he doesnt use it as he has already got a freedom pass.

it was half price so instead of it been 1.75 for the journey that day it took only 85p.
i paid roughly £152.
Total amount due to be paid is £152.45 this includes admin fees.
The administration fee is charged due to all the time that is involved in investigating each case and where there are multiple refunds involved, we must investigate each one of these, this is a very time-consuming process and is therefore costly to the business.
this is what west midlands sent me few years ago,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

Did it look like a conventional Oyster card, with no photo on it? It sounds to me like an Oyster with a national railcard attached to it, which is a logical link. As far as I know the Freedom Cards have a big red ribbon design across them, a clear reference to "London Councils" and a photo in the bottom left corner. There is confusingly an Oyster 60+ card, but it says this clearly on the front and a photo top right.

If you can register that card via TfL then you can delve into the precise set-up online.

its literally the same as a normal oyster blue card

 

[AlterEgo]

no it was just a normal blue oyster card. but when he scanned it with his machine apparently it was a discounted half price oyster card. i just asked my dad and he just said he doesnt remember and he said found it on the floor one day and kept it on him just as a spare card. he doesnt use it as he has already got a freedom pass.

What a total mess. Unfortunately for you, you are guilty of the offence and have no defence.

i paid roughly £152.
Total amount due to be paid is £152.45 this includes admin fees.
The administration fee is charged due to all the time that is involved in investigating each case and where there are multiple refunds involved, we must investigate each one of these, this is a very time-consuming process and is therefore costly to the business.
this is what west midlands sent me few years ago,

This has no relevance to your case with TfL.

TfL are prosecuting you for the offence. You will be fined by the magistrates according to your income, have to pay a surcharge on that fine, have to pay the outstanding fare and also TfL's costs. There is a third discount for an early guilty plea.

 

[London99]

What a total mess. Unfortunately for you, you are guilty of the offence and have no defence.



This has no relevance to your case with TfL.

TfL are prosecuting you for the offence. You will be fined by the magistrates according to your income, have to pay a surcharge on that fine, have to pay the outstanding fare and also TfL's costs. There is a third discount for an early guilty plea.

my defence is that this is my first time, i did not intend to avoid the fare as i got proof on bank statement that i pay the full fare daily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

What a total mess. Unfortunately for you, you are guilty of the offence and have no defence.



This has no relevance to your case with TfL.

TfL are prosecuting you for the offence. You will be fined by the magistrates according to your income, have to pay a surcharge on that fine, have to pay the outstanding fare and also TfL's costs. There is a third discount for an early guilty plea.

i dont want a criminal record

 

[WesternLancer]

no it was just a normal blue oyster card. but when he scanned it with his machine apparently it was a discounted half price oyster card. i just asked my dad and he just said he doesnt remember and he said found it on the floor one day and kept it on him just as a spare card. he doesnt use it as he has already got a freedom pass.

it was half price so instead of it been 1.75 for the journey that day it took only 85p.
i paid roughly £152.
Total amount due to be paid is £152.45 this includes admin fees.
The administration fee is charged due to all the time that is involved in investigating each case and where there are multiple refunds involved, we must investigate each one of these, this is a very time-consuming process and is therefore costly to the business.
this is what west midlands sent me few years ago,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==


its literally the same as a normal oyster blue card

So basically he picked up a card on the street that didn’t belong to him and failed to hand it in?

Looks like whoever’s it was had a discount of some sort applied to it. But you either didn’t notice that or did and opted not to investigate it.

It’s possible that not even your dad was entitled to use it either.

I guess the choices are plead guilty and accept the court penalty which is a fine or plead not guilty and go to court to discuss it with the magistrate but not sure where that would get you really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

my defence is that this is my first time, i did not intend to avoid the fare as i got proof on bank statement that i pay the full fare daily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==

I doubt that’s a defence. You only have to commit a crime once to commit a crime. Are you saying the very first occasion you used it on the bus is the time you were stopped in this incident?

i dont want a criminal record

Of course not but you don’t get to decide that.

You could consult a solicitor about this but that’s not cheap and they may not be able to prevent a guilty verdict.

 

[London99]

So basically he picked up a card on the street that didn’t belong to him and failed to hand it in?

Looks like whoever’s it was had a discount of some sort applied to it. But you either didn’t notice that or did and opted not to investigate it.

I guess the choices are plead guilty and accept the court penalty which is a fine or plead not guilty and go to court to discuss it with the magistrate but not sure where that would get you really.

So basically he picked up a card on the street that didn’t belong to him and failed to hand it in?

Looks like whoever’s it was had a discount of some sort applied to it. But you either didn’t notice that or did and opted not to investigate it.

I guess the choices are plead guilty and accept the court penalty which is a fine or plead not guilty and go to court to discuss it with the magistrate but not sure where that would get you really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==



I doubt that’s a defence. You only have to commit a crime once to commit a crime.

Of course not but you don’t get to decide that.

You could consult a solicitor about this but that’s not cheap and they may not be able to prevent a guilty verdict.

if i plead guilty will the criminal record stay on my record for life

 

[London99]

So basically he picked up a card on the street that didn’t belong to him and failed to hand it in?

Looks like whoever’s it was had a discount of some sort applied to it. But you either didn’t notice that or did and opted not to investigate it.

It’s possible that not even your dad was entitled to use it either.

I guess the choices are plead guilty and accept the court penalty which is a fine or plead not guilty and go to court to discuss it with the magistrate but not sure where that would get you really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2025 ==



I doubt that’s a defence. You only have to commit a crime once to commit a crime. Are you saying the very first occasion you used it on the bus is the time you were stopped in this incident?


Of course not but you don’t get to decide that.

You could consult a solicitor about this but that’s not cheap and they may not be able to prevent a guilty verdict.

yes it was my first time using it as i have proof of me using my bank card daily for tfl travel

 

[AlterEgo]

my defence is that this is my first time, i did not intend to avoid the fare as i got proof on bank statement that i pay the full fare daily.

This is not a defence. You haven't showed us the paperwork but TfL invariably charge people with Bylaw offences which are strict liability - your intent is not relevant, the offence is complete regardless of whether you meant to do it or not.

i dont want a criminal record

You will receive one if you plead guilty or are found guilty. TfL are prosecuting you in the magistrates' court for the offence, and you do not have a defence available to you in law from what you have said so far.

 

[London99]

This is not a defence. You haven't showed us the paperwork but TfL invariably charge people with Bylaw offences which are strict liability - your intent is not relevant, the offence is complete regardless of whether you meant to do it or not.


You will receive one if you plead guilty or are found guilty. TfL are prosecuting you in the magistrates' court for the offence, and you do not have a defence available to you in law from what you have said so far.

will the criminal records stay with me forever, i never had a criminal record so could u help me understand it better. can i not just ask the judge to pay a fine

 

[WesternLancer]

This is not a defence. You haven't showed us the paperwork but TfL invariably charge people with Bylaw offences which are strict liability - your intent is not relevant, the offence is complete regardless of whether you meant to do it or not.


You will receive one if you plead guilty or are found guilty. TfL are prosecuting you in the magistrates' court for the offence, and you do not have a defence available to you in law from what you have said so far.

I agree with this, but I assume if the op wishes to attempt that defence they should plead not guilty on the SJPN and then try to make that case to the magistrates at the court on the day of trial.

The downside if that isn’t successful is that they would lose the discount on the fine granted for an early guilty plea.

If the circumstances around how the Oyster card came into the father’s possession and then to the op for use are as described then it seems to me the op has been very unlucky. But that can happen.

 

[London99]

I agree with this, but I assume if the op wishes to attempt that defence they should plead not guilty on the SJPN and then try to make that case to the magistrates at the court on the day of trial.

The downside if that isn’t successful is that they would lose the discount on the fine granted for an early guilty plea.

If the circumstances around how the Oyster card came into the father’s possession and then to the op for use are as described then it seems to me the op has been very unlucky. But that can happen.

is there any way i can put a defence foward. because i only tapped thinking it was a normal oyster.

 

[AlterEgo]

will the criminal records stay with me forever, i never had a criminal record so could u help me understand it better. can i not just ask the judge to pay a fine

This will be dealt with by magistrates, not a judge. The sentence is fixed in law and is as I stated upthread. You will be fined as punishment.

You may be thinking of a Penalty Fare, but that is not something magistrates deal with. TfL reported you for prosecution so you cannot be penalty fared at this stage.

I agree with this, but I assume if the op wishes to attempt that defence they should plead not guilty on the SJPN and then try to make that case to the magistrates at the court on the day of trial.

The downside if that isn’t successful is that they would lose the discount on the fine granted for an early guilty plea.

This would be terrible advice from the forum. They do not have a defence in law and they should be under no illusions about that.

"This is well harsh, my dad gave it to me and he found it on the floor" is not a defence to the Bylaw offences TfL charge.

If the circumstances around how the Oyster card came into the father’s possession and then to the op for use are as described then it seems to me the op has been very unlucky. But that can happen.

To be blunt none of that is relevant; this is a strict liability matter and the magistrates will be uninterested in this save for possible mitigation.

is there any way i can put a defence foward. because i only tapped thinking it was a normal oyster.

You do not have a defence in law. This is a strict liability matter as advised; you don't have to intend to break the law or evade the fare to break the TfL fares bylaws. You simply have to be found without a valid ticket or pass, which you were. That's all there is to it. It's like speeding in this respect.

 

[WesternLancer]

will the criminal records stay with me forever, i never had a criminal record so could u help me understand it better. can i not just ask the judge to pay a fine

The fine is the punishment, the criminal record is the record of the punishment which is in the public domain and thus in theory available for people to find out about forever. If you see tv programmes like ‘Who do you think you are?’ They often find out about people’s ancestors having criminal records from 100 years or more ago.

But I think what you mean is how long would you have to declare it for on things like job applications before it is ‘spent’ - given it’s a relatively minor offence.

 

[London99]

The fine is the punishment, the criminal record is the record of the punishment which is in the public domain and thus in theory available for people to find out about forever. If you see tv programmes like ‘Who do you think you are?’ They often find out about people’s ancestors having criminal records from 100 years or more ago.

But I think what you mean is how long would you have to declare it for on things like job applications before it is ‘spent’ - given it’s a relatively minor offence.

yes the second part.
what will the impact for me as i'm a graduate who is applying for accounting jobs

 

[WesternLancer]

is there any way i can put a defence foward. because i only tapped thinking it was a normal oyster.

I don’t think so for the reasons AlterEgo is explaining in their posts.

 

[AlterEgo]

yes the second part.
what will the impact for me as i'm a graduate who is applying for accounting jobs

If you require an Enhanced DBS, or if you will be a regulated person it may affect you. You should check with any regulatory bodies what impact a conviction will have.

Your criminal record will need to be disclosed by law for one year after which it will become spent. Unlock is a charity with resources explaining what this means.

 

[WesternLancer]

yes the second part.
what will the impact for me as i'm a graduate who is applying for accounting jobs

There are people on this forum who know about that. Hopefully they will post info over weekend for you.

There’s also a charity called Unlock with a good website info on this sort of thing that I’ve seen recommended here.

If you are not hard up against the deadline for returning the SJPN to the court (you must not miss that deadline) then you can wait a few days to see what info and advice others give you on here. As I said there is also the option of consulting a solicitor but that might cost about £500 or maybe more (you can ask for a quote before asking them and incurring a charge for their help).

 

[furlong]

So I agree that the information about the West Midlands incident means it won't be relevant here.

So it was a half-price bus discount without a photograph on the card but which relied on a separate photocard? That sounds pretty unusual if the card was found yet never replaced and therefore blocked. (There could even be malpractice involved here too.)

How long ago was the card found do you know? Roughly how long ago was it last used before this incident?

What precisely is the offence given on the SJPN and what evidence is supplied? It is important. (There might be a plausible "reasonable excuse" defence to consider if you had no reason to believe at the time that the Oyster card lent to you wasn't a valid transferrable one.) If it's more important to try to a avoid a criminal record than to pay out some extra money, and depending which offence it is, then you should consider getting a solicitor involved to see what they think about attempting to defend the situation or persuading TfL to issue a warning instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

You do not have a defence in law. This is a strict liability matter as advised;

We do NOT know that yet as we don't know the precise offence! (This was a bus not a train so "reasonable excuse" might be in play. They might also trip up stretching the legislation to encompass Oyster which can be an uneasy fit in places.)

 

[Pushpit]

To be frank, the bit of this story that seems unlikely to me is a 71 year old man, entitled to free public transport, going around purloining other people's Oyster cards. I'm of that generation and it's just not what we do (exceptions of course apply).

That said, if the cost of relatively minor criminal record / fine is weighing heavily and possibly unfairly on the OP, there is the option to talk to the 3 or 4 specialist solicitors, who deal with TfL on a daily basis, to see if they can work their magic here. It will cost around £750 with no guarantee of success, though it seems a good chance of preventing prosecution from the cases here. It's a matter for the OP as to whether this is worth trying, in terms of financial and reputation management.

 

[WesternLancer]

yes it was my first time using it as i have proof of me using my bank card daily for tfl travel

Thanks for clarifying.

I hope you are at least getting the info here that allows you to understand the process, know what will happen and weigh up any options that exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==

This would be terrible advice from the forum. They do not have a defence in law and they should be under no illusions about that.

"This is well harsh, my dad gave it to me and he found it on the floor" is not a defence

Just to comment. I wasn’t necessarily advising the OP to do this but trying to explain it was an option for them and then they can understand the consequences.

I would assume the consequences of pleading not guilty are then an in person appearance at the magistrate’s court being required. So a chunk of a day hanging about in the court waiting for case to be heard.

And then if found guilty it’s loss of the 30% discount on the fine for making an early guilty plea ‘at the first opportunity’

Are there other downsides?

 

[London99]

So I agree that the information about the West Midlands incident means it won't be relevant here.

So it was a half-price bus discount without a photograph on the card but which relied on a separate photocard? That sounds pretty unusual if the card was found yet never replaced and therefore blocked. (There could even be malpractice involved here too.)

How long ago was the card found do you know? Roughly how long ago was it last used before this incident?

What precisely is the offence given on the SJPN and what evidence is supplied? It is important. (There might be a plausible "reasonable excuse" defence to consider if you had no reason to believe at the time that the Oyster card lent to you wasn't a valid transferrable one.) If it's more important to try to a avoid a criminal record than to pay out some extra money, and depending which offence it is, then you should consider getting a solicitor involved to see what they think about attempting to defend the situation or persuading TfL to issue a warning instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2025 ==


We do NOT know that yet as we don't know the precise offence! (This was a bus not a train so "reasonable excuse" might be in play. They might also trip up stretching the legislation to encompass Oyster which can be an uneasy fit in places.)

yes so apparently it was half price and it required a photocard. My dad for years had a freedom pass, so he doesn't use it. he just had a spare oyster card to use just incase. he didn't know it was a discounted one as well because as previously mentioned, it was just a normal blue oyster card. my dad never used it that one because he has had a freedom pass for over 10 years. will the judge not be able to check the history of that tfl pass on the day?

ill send the exact offence later on tonight , cant remember it on the top of my head.

also im an accounting student who is applying for accounting jobs. so a criminal record in "fare evasion" could stop me pursuing that career in accounting. this is why im worried about the criminal record

 

[London99]

To be frank, the bit of this story that seems unlikely to me is a 71 year old man, entitled to free public transport, going around purloining other people's Oyster cards. I'm of that generation and it's just not what we do (exceptions of course apply).

That said, if the cost of relatively minor criminal record / fine is weighing heavily and possibly unfairly on the OP, there is the option to talk to the 3 or 4 specialist solicitors, who deal with TfL on a daily basis, to see if they can work their magic here. It will cost around £750 with no guarantee of success, though it seems a good chance of preventing prosecution from the cases here. It's a matter for the OP as to whether this is worth trying, in terms of financial and reputation management.

im happy to pay £750 or more, that's not an issue. i just want tfl know it was a complete accident. because as mentioned on other response, i just graduated 7 months ago with an accounting degree, studying to finish the rest of my ACCA credit. And a criminal record with "fare evasion" will hinder my chance of landing an accounting job. this is why i want to find a way to get the judge to not push for a criminal record

 

[WesternLancer]

im happy to pay £750 or more, that's not an issue. i just want tfl know it was a complete accident. because as mentioned on other response, i just graduated 7 months ago with an accounting degree, studying to finish the rest of my ACCA credit. And a criminal record with "fare evasion" will hinder my chance of landing an accounting job. this is why i want to find a way to get the judge to not push for a criminal record

Have you not had a letter from TfL about this before you got sent the SJPN papers by the court? That’s the usual process. Gives you a chance to tell TfL that.

 

[London99]

Have you not had a letter from TfL about this before you got sent the SJPN papers by the court? That’s the usual process. Gives you a chance to tell TfL that.

I did however i did not mention anything about my career. Just mentioned how it was an accident and that's when i received the SNJP

 

[island]

Just to note that an Oyster card can be loaded with, for example, a 50% off discount on buses and trams requiring a bus & tram photocard.

As respects criminal records:

• If convicted in court, whether after a guilty plea or a trial, you will have a criminal conviction.
• The offence of not paying a bus fare is not a recordable offence, so it will not normally appear on any DBS checks.
• The criminal conviction is spent after a year so need no longer be disclosed for most purposes.
• An accountant must have a standard DBS check upon entry to the profession and is required to disclose spent convictions.
• It is unlikely that someone will suffer adverse consequences for having a single minor conviction as long as they disclose it properly and don't try to hide it.

 

[WesternLancer]

I did however i did not mention anything about my career. Just mentioned how it was an accident and that's when i received the SNJP

Well done for trying.

 

[Hadders]

Just to clarify a few things in this thread.

TfL really won't care about your career, and why should they. Why should someone wanting to be an accountant get a lesser penalty than (for example) a cleaner or supermarket shelf filler.

We don't know what offence you're being prosecuted for but I imagine it's one of the TfL Byelaws. If you plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court after a not guilty plea) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the tine
- Compensation for the fares avoided
- Contribution towards TfL's court costs

Generally speaking, bylaw convictions are not entered into the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show an basic or standard DBS checks. That said, a bylaw conviction is a criminal conviction and also a matter of public record and organisations do sometimes have other ways of finding out this sort of information.

For most purposes the conviction will be considered as spent after one year. If you are asked if you have an unspent conviction then I would always advise being honest about it. A bylaw conviction for a minor ticketing matter won't normally adversely affect career opportunities as long as you are honest about it.

The charity Unlock is a good starting place for more information:

Unlock

For people with criminal records.

unlock.org.uk