SNCF opens two new high-speed lines

[Mordac]

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2017/07/03/sncf-launches-two-new-high-speed-railway-lines/

SNCF launches two new high-speed lines

SNCF celebrated the launch of two new high-speed lines in France at the weekend.

In a statement on its website, the state-owned company said the new lines will cut journey times in the west of France, boost regional tourism and raise the profile of the Atlantic coastal regions nationally and internationally.

Both are extensions of the LGV Atlantique high-speed line from Paris, LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire connects Le Mans to Rennes and LGV Sud Europe Atlantique connects Tours to Bordeaux.

Initial plans for the lines began in the 1990s and thanks to a public-private partnership which has seen more than €12 billion spent overall, the lines opened on July 2.

In total €3.3 billion has been invested in the 182km LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire line, which connects Paris to Rennes in 1 hour and 25 minutes, saving 39 minutes in comparison to the conventional rail route.

Meanwhile the 302km LGV Sud Europe Atlantique extension has cost €9 billion and connects Paris to Bordeaux in 2 hours and 4 minutes, a saving of 1 hours and 10 minutes.

Funding has come from the French government and the regions of: Aquitaine, Centre, Limousin, Midi-Pyrénées, Brittany and Pays de la Loire, as well as SNCF, its subsidiary LISEA and the EU.

LISEA signed a 50-year contract with SNCF to build, maintain and operate the LGV Sud Europe Atlantique line while Eiffage Rail Express (ERE) signed a 25-year contract to develop, construct, operate and upkeep the LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire line.

I'm really annoyed that for the foreseable this has meant that the TGV Atlantique will NOT be crossing the Spanish border to Irun, thereby requiring a taxi from Hendaye for connection to the Sud-Express!

 

[edwin_m]

I'm really annoyed that for the foreseable this has meant that the TGV Atlantique will NOT be crossing the Spanish border to Irun, thereby requiring a taxi from Hendaye for connection to the Sud-Express!

Any good reason why it doesn't? With no onward standard gauge connection it's not as if the Spanish could steal it...

 

[Please Explain]

I'm really annoyed that for the foreseable this has meant that the TGV Atlantique will NOT be crossing the Spanish border to Irun, thereby requiring a taxi from Hendaye for connection to the Sud-Express!

Why are they cutting them back to Hendaye? No cab required for Irun, simply take the Euskotren.

 

[Mordac]

All I know is from the Seat61 website:

"Important: From 2 July 2017 the journey is faster as the new Tours-Bordeaux high-speed line opens. However, due to reduced linespeed on the Dax-Hendaye section, most TGVs will terminate at Hendaye until further notice rather than extending one more stop across the border to Irun. That means that on most days you'll need to take a taxi (3km, 9 minutes) or local train across the border one stop from Hendaye to Irun on the other side of the border. Always check the TGV time for your specific date of travel as times can vary."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All I know is from the Seat61 website:

"Important: From 2 July 2017 the journey is faster as the new Tours-Bordeaux high-speed line opens. However, due to reduced linespeed on the Dax-Hendaye section, most TGVs will terminate at Hendaye until further notice rather than extending one more stop across the border to Irun. That means that on most days you'll need to take a taxi (3km, 9 minutes) or local train across the border one stop from Hendaye to Irun on the other side of the border. Always check the TGV time for your specific date of travel as times can vary."

I'm pretty sure the Euskotren station in Irun is a fair way from the RENFE station, though it is next door to the SNCF station in Hendaye.
When I went I used Eusktren to San Sebastian/Donostia, but the stations there are also distant from each other.
Actually most SNCF trains terminate at Hendaye anyway, very few cross the border.

 

[Please Explain]

I'm pretty sure the Euskotren station in Irun is a fair way from the RENFE station, though it is next door to the SNCF station in Hendaye.
When I went I used Eusktren to San Sebastian/Donostia, but the stations there are also distant from each other.
Actually most SNCF trains terminate at Hendaye anyway, very few cross the border.

Its about a five-seven minute walk.

 

[Mordac]

Just realised that going the other way, SNCF have a TGV leaving Hendaye at 11:16, 17 minutes before the Sud Express is scheduled to arrive. The next departure is 13:18. Gotta love love the thought that was put into these timings... :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

All I know is from the Seat61 website:

"Important: From 2 July 2017 the journey is faster as the new Tours-Bordeaux high-speed line opens. However, due to reduced linespeed on the Dax-Hendaye section, most TGVs will terminate at Hendaye until further notice rather than extending one more stop across the border to Irun. That means that on most days you'll need to take a taxi (3km, 9 minutes) or local train across the border one stop from Hendaye to Irun on the other side of the border. Always check the TGV time for your specific date of travel as times can vary."

That's the kind of nonsense you expect to get in e.g. South East Asian countries where it's often more about politics and national pride with this kind of thing than practicality, not in a supposedly united Europe.

 

[Senex]

Is that really only € 12.3 bn for just under 500 km of new double-track high-speed railway?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is that really only € 12.3 bn for just under 500 km of new double-track high-speed railway?

Yes - but it does help somewhat that the French population is a lot less dense than the English population. Fewer NIMBYs for a start.

 

[33Hz]

You gotta be kidding, the NIMBYism around that final phase of the project is some of the worst I've heard of. Only last week they managed to overturn the "declaration of public utility" for one leg of it.

Doesn't help that the new president is cool on TGV either.

 

[daikilo]

You gotta be kidding, the NIMBYism around that final phase of the project is some of the worst I've heard of. Only last week they managed to overturn the "declaration of public utility" for one leg of it.

Doesn't help that the new president is cool on TGV either.

I think the section where the "declaration" was overturned is the core between Bordeaux and where the two branches separate. I also understand that it was on a technicality and can be reinstated relatively simply. However the issues of funding and profitability remain.

As regards the views of the president on TGVs, he seems to believe (probably rightly) that it is more urgent to spend the money on more everyday rail and tram projects around cities to ease congezstion for commuters. Being an economist, he probably considers that there is a limit to what France can afford in the nearterm, and the wider social and financial benefits of what he is proposing.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the section where the "declaration" was overturned is the core between Bordeaux and where the two branches separate. I also understand that it was on a technicality and can be reinstated relatively simply. However the issues of funding and profitability remain.

As regards the views of the president on TGVs, he seems to believe (probably rightly) that it is more urgent to spend the money on more everyday rail and tram projects around cities to ease congezstion for commuters. Being an economist, he probably considers that there is a limit to what France can afford in the nearterm, and the wider social and financial benefits of what he is proposing.

Not surprisingly the first TGV lines were built where the need was greatest, and probably had a good business case. However their success led to demands for routes to many other places, some of which probably didn't have enough demand to justify a dedicated high speed line. I'd guess most of the HS lines in France that are actually needed have been built by now.

 

[daikilo]

Regarding the Hendaye - Irun section, I have not been able to identify any permanent or temporary changes to speed restrictions which could explain the change. However, the turnaround betwwen an inbound and outbound TGV at Hendaye seems to be typically 45 minutes for the first rotations probably meaning it would be too tight to extend to Irun.

Also, there is one TGV arriving Irun at around 20h30 but none departing suggesting it returns to Hendaye for stabling and probably cleaning.

I suspect therefore that the change is more the consequence of the acceleration between Tours and Bordeaux than and the clock-face running on that section than anything else.

 

[MarcVD]

As far as I know, no train departs to France from Irun. French trains go (normally) to Irun and then return empty. Spanish trains come to Hendaye and return empty too. Same arrangment at Cerbere/Port-Bou. Looks ridiculous, I know. Left over from à 19th century international treaty.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[Mordac]

As far as I know, no train departs to France from Irun. French trains go (normally) to Irun and then return empty. Spanish trains come to Hendaye and return empty too. Same arrangment at Cerbere/Port-Bou. Looks ridiculous, I know. Left over from à 19th century international treaty.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk

Indeed, there is only a problem southbound, as the northbound Sud is still running into Hendaye enabling an easy interchange, although given the stupidity with the timing of the next TGV departure I highlighted above, the gains from the faster journey south in the new LGV are almost wiped out.

 

[calopez]

Does anyone know where I can find the distance between Paris and Bordeaux by the new line?

I'm travelling that way in a couple of weeks' time and I like to know how far I'm going!

 

[Gordon]

Does anyone know where I can find the distance between Paris and Bordeaux by the new line?

I'm travelling that way in a couple of weeks' time and I like to know how far I'm going!

Most European railway lines have wikipedia entries, and most include a line diagram. Usually if you are in the diagram page for one line, there will be links to the connecting lines' wiki diagrams.

I don't know who finds the time and energy to do these but they are very comprehensive, and accurate AFAIK.

LGV sud-Atlantique here:


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schéma_de_la_LGV_Sud_Europe_Atlantique


.

 

[Fred43123]

Does anyone know where I can find the distance between Paris and Bordeaux by the new line?

I'm travelling that way in a couple of weeks' time and I like to know how far I'm going!

Working out around 326 miles 17 chains

 

[Groningen]

Yesterday there was a large article about the HSL in France. Still making a loss. If i find the newspaper again, than i will publish it. 1 thing already; the HSL has maintenance; the normal railways are often left untouched.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any good reason why it doesn't? With no onward standard gauge connection it's not as if the Spanish could steal it...

There is a project to extend the standard gauge south from Irun (by installing mixed gauge) to meet the ADIF standard gauge LAV line being built northwards from Valladolid.
They will meet somewhere south of San Sebastian where a freight interchange will be built.
That is supposed to allow through standard gauge France-Spain operation.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/infrastructure/single-view/view/mixed-gauge-to-hendaye.html

SPAIN: Infrastructure Manager ADIF has awarded a €20·4m contract to install mixed-gauge track between Astigarraga and Irún, the Ministry of Development announced on April 1. Together with earlier contracts for upgrading the signalling and overhead line, this will complete a 1 435 mm gauge corridor between the French border and the high speed line connecting Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastián which is currently under construction.

 

[daikilo]

Yesterday there was a large article about the HSL in France. Still making a loss. If i find the newspaper again, than i will publish it. 1 thing already; the HSL has maintenance; the normal railways are often left untouched.

Here is a recent article on the subject (in French).
http://www.leparisien.fr/flash-actu...-etre-toutes-rentables-29-06-2017-7096998.php

I have not copied it as it is rather long, but there are various key points:
1) Paris to Lyon, Lille and Metz are profitable as are some others
2) some LGV lines serving smaller cities are not (67% is cited)
3) overall TGV operations do not lose money, they just don't earn enough
4) 40% of TGV operations take place off the LGV lines
5) Track access charges are variable and are highest at peak times
6) Financing is costly, particularly on the 2 extensions just opened

However, it does point out that the LGV/TGV network brings other socio-economic benefits to the cities served.

 

[calopez]

Most European railway lines have wikipedia entries, and most include a line diagram. Usually if you are in the diagram page for one line, there will be links to the connecting lines' wiki diagrams.

I don't know who finds the time and energy to do these but they are very comprehensive, and accurate AFAIK.

LGV sud-Atlantique here:


https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schéma_de_la_LGV_Sud_Europe_Atlantique


.

Brilliant! Just what I was looking for. Thanks for pointing me in their direction... and thanks to whoever it is that created the diagrams!