smoking ban

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . . please let me know what it is, as I am unaware of any.

We might have a long wait!
(I still have not seen an answer to my own request, ten posts up).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The short answer is, unless there is some well hidden statute or authority smoking is not illegal unless the area is substantially or entirely enclosed (then the stuff about public access and suchlike comes in).
The byelaws evidently recognise that the health act 2006 does not make smoking on an open platform illegal, so have said if there is a no smoking sign then it is illegal. If not, it's legal.

 

[Deerfold]

To my knowledge there is no law (or byelaw) specifically banning smoking outside an enclosed space near a doorway on the railway (unless there is a no smoking sign nearby.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - that wa a comment about the general smoking ban. You find people crowded inside in the pub doorway smoking around where I live or right on the doorway waving their cigarette around inside.

That's apart from the farm shop I've stopped going to as the woman on the checkout always seems to be smoking (I'm not keen on cigarette smoke anyway but I really don't want my fresh fruit and veg smelling of it).

 

[moonrakerz]

there is a no smoking sign then it is illegal. If not, it's legal.

Ah! but as I said - is a sign "thanking me for not smoking", actually (in Law) a "No Smoking" sign ? :roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ah! but as I said - is a sign "thanking me for not smoking", actually (in Law) a "No Smoking" sign ? :roll:

I'm not sure. I would suspect it does though.

 

[networkrail1]

I believe we talked about this before once I get home on the laptop I will do some digging and provide links to all the info needed on the law .

All the best.

Simon

 

[blacknight]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - that wa a comment about the general smoking ban. You find people crowded inside in the pub doorway smoking around where I live or right on the doorway waving their cigarette around inside.

Same problem now regularly happens at stations passenger crowd around entrance puffing away creating passive smoking hazard for both booking hall & gateline staff.
Smokers even think benches on station front are provided for their habit, not pleasant for non smokers having to pass through clouds of smoke.

 

[moonrakerz]

I'm not sure. I would suspect it does though.

Would signs saying "thank you for not driving above 30 mph" be OK then ? I think not.....................

 

[Lincoln]

Fishguard is not a railway asset, Station owners Stena Line permit smoking on the platform and has dispensation on safety grounds due to the proximity of the level crossing to the platform.
. The dispensation was granted by Pembroke County Council,the enforcing authority.

Bob

There was no dispensation granted as the station isn't enclosed enough to come under the ban.

Railway Byelaw 3 could of been used to ban smoking on the station via appropriate signage. However, as you point out the owners decided against this on safety grounds.

 

[merlodlliw]

There was no dispensation granted as the station isn't enclosed enough to come under the ban.

Railway Byelaw 3 could of been used to ban smoking on the station via appropriate signage. However, as you point out the owners decided against this on safety grounds.

OK but I am aware Pembroke County Council logged it as smoking permissive,after an inspection by its officers at the request of Stena, I was informed of this by a local Cllr.
Fishguard Station is always a good quiz question, IE which is the only Railway Station in the UK which allows smoking on its platform.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe we talked about this before once I get home on the laptop I will do some digging and provide links to all the info needed on the law .

All the best.

Simon

Correct we did discuss this previous.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . Fishguard Station is always a good quiz question, IE which is the only Railway Station in the UK which allows smoking on its platform.

perhaps the question ought to ask which Railway Station in England & Wales which allows smoking on its platform?

 

[networkrail1]

Hi all.

Right here goes the following link provides the law on smoking in the UK :-

http://www.nosmokinglaw.co.uk/english_ban_overview.htm

As you can see it does not include open platforms and or open spaces that is because it is not against the law to smoke in an open place that is where the following railway bye law comes into play.

Railway bye law number 3 clearly states.

No person shall smoke or carry a lighted pipe, cigar, cigarette, match, lighter or other lighted item on any part of the railway on or near which there is a notice indicating that smoking is not allowed.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf

This means that if there is no sign stating that smoking is not allowed then it is proved to be allowed to smoke because the company who run the site has not kept its end of the no smoking agreement.

This also includes if signs have been removed if i no smoking sign has been removed and there is no other sign on the railway station then you are not breaking the law by smoking, however the company who operate the site is because they have not put signs up which by law they have to.

All the best.

Simon.

P.S. the last bit is nowhere on the Internet it was what a British transport police officer has told me about the ban.

 

[Tom B]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ck-Hogan-given-smoking-ban-jail-sentence.html

I love the way his wife says that "law abiding" people shouldn't go to gaol. What did he do.... break the law! Ah...

 

[imagination]

Its the daily mail. What do you expect?

 

[wbbminerals]

At open unstaffed stations no-one seems to care and it happens all the time from my experience. Even at staffed stations in open areas a lot of people think it's acceptable and onlookers don't seem to be bothered.

 

[Greenback]

The short answer is, unless there is some well hidden statute or authority smoking is not illegal unless the area is substantially or entirely enclosed (then the stuff about public access and suchlike comes in).
The byelaws evidently recognise that the health act 2006 does not make smoking on an open platform illegal, so have said if there is a no smoking sign then it is illegal. If not, it's legal.

I agree

Sorry if I wasn't clear - that wa a comment about the general smoking ban. You find people crowded inside in the pub doorway smoking around where I live or right on the doorway waving their cigarette around inside.

This is less of a problem where the premises has a proper smoking area (patio for instance), though of course a lot of pubs do not possess any outside areas at all. There are a numbe rof mid terrace pubs of that type around here - smokers have little option but to stand outside on the pavement!

In fact, when I was in San Francisco in 2003, they had just introduced a ban and one bar I went to had an enormous ashtray in teh DOORWAY where all the smkers stood!

I believe we talked about this before

Yes we have, but I for one don't mind talking about it again!

At open unstaffed stations no-one seems to care and it happens all the time from my experience. Even at staffed stations in open areas a lot of people think it's acceptable and onlookers don't seem to be bothered.

Right enough, and I can see why. Most such stations are not too busy, have platforms longer than the trains that use them and so people ar eunlikely to be too bothered unless someone is right next to them blowing smoke in their face.

Besides, as we have established now, if there are no signs on an unstaffed open platform, it's not illegal anyway!

 

[moonrakerz]

Daily Mail again ! - but an interesting point.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...igns-actually-ENCOURAGE-smokers-light-up.html

When prohibition was introduced in the US far more people were drinkers than when booze was freely available..............

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I have seen in person and from what I have read on this thread, it is obvious that when the subject of a smoking ban was put forward to the general public, the publicity was not as well informative as it should have been. The majority of people are not fully aware of what is involved.

I agree that when notices about smoking are displayed, the wording should be carefully considered with legal definitions in law, to ensure that there are no misapprehensions as to the statement made.

 

[island]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decriminalised_parking_enforcement

http://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/TendringDC/Transport/Roads+and+Parking/whatisdpefaq.htm

Parking is not a criminal matter, it is a Civil one.

Only where DCPE has been put into effect. It is not in effect everywhere. If you park on a motorway, for example, it is a criminal offence and you could get a fixed penalty notice from the police. In contrast, if you park on a double yellow line in London you could get a penalty charge notice from the local council. Fail to pay the FPN and you will be summonsed to Magistrates Court to answer for the offence, and ultimately arrested if you don't. Fail to pay the PCN and it's enforceable through the County Court as a civil debt (in practice this is likely to be Northampton Traffic Court), and you could have bailiffs around.

The smoking question is conflating two issues. For indoor areas, no-smoking signs must be displayed, and smoking must be prohibited. For outdoor areas on train stations, smoking is prohibited under the railway bye-laws only if signs (which are optional) are displayed saying so. The fact that very many stations display such signs means that smoking is banned in the outside areas of many stations. But not all, and it's not mandatory.

The above analysis applies to England and Wales.

AJN: With due respect, the words "hole", "stop", and "digging" come to mind.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Only where DCPE has been put into effect. It is not in effect everywhere. If you park on a motorway, for example, it is a criminal offence and you could get a fixed penalty notice from the police. In contrast, if you park on a double yellow line in London you could get a penalty charge notice from the local council. Fail to pay the FPN and you will be summonsed to Magistrates Court to answer for the offence, and ultimately arrested if you don't. Fail to pay the PCN and it's enforceable through the County Court as a civil debt (in practice this is likely to be Northampton Traffic Court), and you could have bailiffs around.

The smoking question is conflating two issues. For indoor areas, no-smoking signs must be displayed, and smoking must be prohibited. For outdoor areas on train stations, smoking is prohibited under the railway bye-laws only if signs (which are optional) are displayed saying so. The fact that very many stations display such signs means that smoking is banned in the outside areas of many stations. But not all, and it's not mandatory.

The above analysis applies to England and Wales.

AJN: With due respect, the words "hole", "stop", and "digging" come to mind.

I'd given up on You lot Days ago.

I've not posted in ages.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Pity that, you've got so much to reply to! And if you're right, then what have you got to worry about...?

 

[GB]

I'd given up on You lot Days ago.

I've not posted in ages.

Your last post was on this subject was "Yesterday, 09:17", hardly days or ages....

 

[90019]

I'd given up on You lot Days ago.

I've not posted in ages.

Read: 'I know I'm wrong, but I'm not prepared to admit it.'


I really don't like the entrances into Waverley off Waverley Bridge since the smoking ban, because you get the staff and customers standing around smoking at the bit where the roof stops on the ramps.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd given up on You lot Days ago.

I've not posted in ages.

That's a dissapointment for those of us who are looking forward to your answer to our request for you to reply with the legislation and other authorities which support your view that it is illegal to smoke in (non-enclosed) outdoor public spaces in England & Wales.

 

[passmore]

Do folks think the Smoking Ban is being properly enforced?

I have seen People Smoking on major Stations, like Leeds, without being challenged.

And Staff at Halifax, West Kirby and New Brighton, indulging in the habit themselves.

No I don't think it is being properly enforced at all.

Public means public. There are many other examples of non-enclosed public spaces around the UK where the no-smoking ban is enforced properly, largely due to adequate signage.

Stations and their respective staff need to take responsibility to ensure that their atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public.

 

[Bon Accord]

Stations and their respective staff need to take responsibility to ensure that their atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public.

Leaving smoking aside, that's an almost impossible aim on a modern railway station - i.e. exhaust fumes, cleanliness etc.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No I don't think it is being properly enforced at all.

Public means public. There are many other examples of non-enclosed public spaces around the UK where the no-smoking ban is enforced properly, largely due to adequate signage.

Stations and their respective staff need to take responsibility to ensure that their atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public.

I have the rather disappointing job of "ensuring the atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public" and so I can say that, despite my station having signs every five metres or so along virtually every wall and in every shelter and building, every day I have to pick up five times more cigarette butts than there are no smoking signs (as in a sign which has on it "NO SMOKING" in big, bold, black letters) on the station (and that is before we get to litter left within arms length of a bin).

I could spend all day looking out for these people, facing them, pointing to the sign and telling them to stop smoking immediately, I could even quote the relevant byelaws to them, ask them to leave railway property (under the byelaws), even call the BTP, but at the end of the day, I know that they will do the same thing tomorrow and the day after, and the day after that.

Yes, part of my job is to tidy up after everyone else, but don't you think that the responsibility should not be on my shoulders, but actually on that of the travelling public, most of whom, I suspect, will justify their actions by proudly proclaiming that by being s**ts, they are giving someone else a job.

Wrong, I have other things to do besides telling people to read a sign they have glanced at as they walked straight past or are standing right next to, but somehow, in all their "years of travelling" have "never seen it there before", and pick up their discarded fag ends and litter each and every day.

Sure, I have a responsibility to keep my station as clean and tidy as possible, but if the travelling public could actually be responsible themselves and follow the rules/laws and not be so f**king selfish and lazy, it wouldn't be half as much effort to do so.

It is very easy to say it is not being enforced properly, but the overlooked and, frankly, obvious fact of the matter is that it shouldn't need to be enforced, it is surely the responsibility of each person to obey laws, byelaws and even just use common sense when out and about, not just at stations, but everywhere.

 

[moonrakerz]

I have the rather disappointing job of "ensuring the atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public"

Whilst having every sympathy with HHF for his comments, I must confess to being torn two ways here.

Just who dreamt up: "ensuring the atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public" - I really don't think that is part of the UK no smoking legislation! Wonderful bit of pseudo-legalistic waffle though, I must admit ! Forget the diesel fumes and the stench from the toilets that haven't seen a cleaner since the old king died !

Why do the TOCs/station management Cos apply the non smoking rules to platforms when the legislation makes it quite permissible to smoke in the open every where else in the land ??
Why don't they spend a bit more time and effort in keeping dirty shoes off the seats on the trains ? I would much prefer that than having them whinge about a nicotine addict having a quick burn in the open air before an x hour train journey.

Apart from which, any Law that isn't properly enforced soon falls into disrepute..................especially "stupid" by-laws - if indeed that is what this is.........

 

[passmore]

I have the rather disappointing job of "ensuring the atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public" and so I can say that, despite my station having signs every five metres or so along virtually every wall and in every shelter and building, every day I have to pick up five times more cigarette butts than there are no smoking signs (as in a sign which has on it "NO SMOKING" in big, bold, black letters) on the station (and that is before we get to litter left within arms length of a bin).

I could spend all day looking out for these people, facing them, pointing to the sign and telling them to stop smoking immediately, I could even quote the relevant byelaws to them, ask them to leave railway property (under the byelaws), even call the BTP, but at the end of the day, I know that they will do the same thing tomorrow and the day after, and the day after that.

Yes, part of my job is to tidy up after everyone else, but don't you think that the responsibility should not be on my shoulders, but actually on that of the travelling public, most of whom, I suspect, will justify their actions by proudly proclaiming that by being s**ts, they are giving someone else a job.

Wrong, I have other things to do besides telling people to read a sign they have glanced at as they walked straight past or are standing right next to, but somehow, in all their "years of travelling" have "never seen it there before", and pick up their discarded fag ends and litter each and every day.

Sure, I have a responsibility to keep my station as clean and tidy as possible, but if the travelling public could actually be responsible themselves and follow the rules/laws and not be so f**king selfish and lazy, it wouldn't be half as much effort to do so.

It is very easy to say it is not being enforced properly, but the overlooked and, frankly, obvious fact of the matter is that it shouldn't need to be enforced, it is surely the responsibility of each person to obey laws, byelaws and even just use common sense when out and about, not just at stations, but everywhere.

I apologise for writing that last sentence. It was completely ill-thought out. I appreciate fully the work that station staff do in keeping their environment and station tidy.
Where I was agreeing with the OP was that there needs to be better enforcement, not just at stations, of these kind of rules. It's quite easy to become naive and assume that the public will take heed of the signs regarding 'smoking' etc. I believe that the OP was unfairly criticised for stating that.

 

[Greenback]

Whilst having every sympathy with HHF for his comments, I must confess to being torn two ways here.

Just who dreamt up: "ensuring the atmosphere is clean and hygienic for the travelling public" - I really don't think that is part of the UK no smoking legislation! Wonderful bit of pseudo-legalistic waffle though, I must admit ! Forget the diesel fumes and the stench from the toilets that haven't seen a cleaner since the old king died !

Why do the TOCs/station management Cos apply the non smoking rules to platforms when the legislation makes it quite permissible to smoke in the open every where else in the land ??
Why don't they spend a bit more time and effort in keeping dirty shoes off the seats on the trains ? I would much prefer that than having them whinge about a nicotine addict having a quick burn in the open air before an x hour train journey.

Apart from which, any Law that isn't properly enforced soon falls into disrepute..................especially "stupid" by-laws - if indeed that is what this is.........

I agree with a lot of that. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the laws were rushed in, without consideration for either enforcement or common sense.

In view of this thread, I had a quick look around Gowerton station today. As far as I could see, it has just one, rather small sign, positioned a metre or so to the left of the entrance to the platform. It simply read 'It is against the law to smoke in these premises'.

As to enforcement, well, the platform is long enough for many carriages - is anyone seriously going to object if a person goes to the far end of the platform for a quick puff? In fact, if anyone stood behind the remnants of the old Central Wales railway bridge, they could not be seen at all.