'Smart Motorways'

[zwk500]

Agree with ZWK500, must safer to actually break down on a live lane, put on your hazards and have the traffic behind you slow/ stop, while you deal with it or get emergency services there. Provides a more safer environment than pulling over to the hard shoulder where everyone then ignores you and continues to drive past at 70mph!

Breaking down in the live lane is infinitely more dangerous until you've caused enough congestion that everybody has slowed down.

The most common failure of a modern vehicle is a burst tyre, absent run-flats being compulsory. If the tyre blows out completely rather than a slow loss of air, you're going to need to stop quick else you're likely to lose control, particularly if it's a front, as well as damaging the rim beyond repair.

You don't want to brake heavily with a burst tyre either, you'll spin out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree with ZWK500, must safer to actually break down on a live lane, put on your hazards and have the traffic behind you slow/ stop, while you deal with it or get emergency services there. Provides a more safer environment than pulling over to the hard shoulder where everyone then ignores you and continues to drive past at 70mph!

This is absolute, total and utter, dangerous, rubbish. Please redo your driving theory. Of course stopping in a live lane is not safer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

You don't want to brake heavily with a burst tyre either, you'll spin out.

Indeed. What you want to do is to remove power and "go left" (as the ads have it) onto the shoulder rather than having to aim for anywhere particular.

 

[Simon11]

Living in London and with the traffic around here, within 10 seconds that congestion would have already started and begun! Therefore, no longer a live lane.

 

[stuu]

That's one of the reasons for getting rid of the hard shoulder. Too many people stop there unnecessarily. Far fewer people use the laybys on smart motorways. So when judging the safety record of smart motorways you have to take into account the number of lives saved by people no longer stopping there.

That is a key reason why the statistics show that ALR is safer per km. Which just shows how statistics can show whatever you want them to... the only thing that matters in my mind is whether or not they are safer if you have a genuine mechanical or other emergency and need to stop. I would assume stopping on the hard shoulder is safer than stopping in a live lane, especially given the lack of the promised detection technology

 

[Bletchleyite]

Living in London and with the traffic around here, within 10 seconds that congestion would have already started and begun! Therefore, no longer a live lane.

And during those 10 seconds one inattentive driver piles into the back of the queue (which has stopped suddenly so isn't expected) and 10 people die. Yeah, clever.

DO NOT stop in the live lane of a motorway (or fast A road), ever, if you have any means whatsoever to avoid doing so. There is a very high chance you will be killed.

 

[zwk500]

Living in London and with the traffic around here, within 10 seconds that congestion would have already started and begun! Therefore, no longer a live lane.

But people in london will have their foot to the floor the moment they're into the clear lane, less than 2' from your back as you're changing your tyre. Honestly, the carriageway is the worst place to stop.

 

[deltic]

Where is your source for that stat as doesn't seem in line with information below?

I only found the below information:

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/25613/html/#:~:text=Despite%20the%20hard%20shoulder%20being,on%20hard%20shoulders%5B5%5D.

Lesson learnt- never use Chat GPT to find an answer without checking the source it claims to find the data from!

 

[dangie]

Smart Motorways definitely encounter more ‘undertook’ overtaking than conventional motorways. Whilst during periods of slow moving stay in lane congestion this allowed, to be undertook at 70mph is quite disconcerting. I’ve had experience of being in lane 2 overtaking lorries which are in lane 1 then before I could move back to lane 1 I’ve been undertook by a following car.

 

[johncrossley]

And doing away with it makes it safer? Instead you HAVE to bring your vehicle to a halt in a live running lane, and that’s safer?

If there are fewer casualties caused by morons stopping on the hard shoulder to read the map or sort out the kids then that has to be taken into account. Whether that outweighs the increased danger caused by more people stopping in the live running lanes is the question.

 

[deltic]

Interesting comments by Mark Harper today on Smart Motorways

"All of the types of smart motorways remain the safest roads on the strategic road network. They are safer than conventional motorways and they are safer, by some margin, than A roads.

as reported in the Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/mark-harper-minister-mps-government-smart-b2322657.html

 

[tomuk]

Interesting comments by Mark Harper today on Smart Motorways



as reported in the Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/mark-harper-minister-mps-government-smart-b2322657.html

A politician not lying for once, a miracle. I suppose the questioner then went on to ask why are you stopping the rollout of smart motorways then?

 

[bramling]

That's one of the reasons for getting rid of the hard shoulder. Too many people stop there unnecessarily. Far fewer people use the laybys on smart motorways. So when judging the safety record of smart motorways you have to take into account the number of lives saved by people no longer stopping there.

That’s using a sledgehammer to crack a nut territory. If we’re saying that people are stopping on hard shoulders for dubious reasons then there’s other ways of dealing with that, not least by increasing fines and enforcement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

A politician not lying for once, a miracle. I suppose the questioner then went on to ask why are you stopping the rollout of smart motorways then?

I’d say it’s obvious the real reason is to avoid the cost of converting any more. A spin-off is they can actually spin this as a positive thing, “we’ve listened to people” etc. A couple of years down the line and it will all likely be someone else’s problem, like most of the messes the Conservatives will be leaving.

It may or may not be too politically toxic to start converting again when there’s more £ available.

 

[MotCO]

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

Having said that, I have undertaken, but only when I am certain that the 'undertakee' has shown no intention of changing lanes. Also, some motorists randomly reduce their speed (maybe they are on their mobile phones or trying to change their heating on their car computer screens), and if I am in a slower lane just behind them, I have no option but to undertake unless I slam my brakes on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

Having said that, I have undertaken, but only when I am certain that the 'undertakee' has shown no intention of changing lanes. Also, some motorists randomly reduce their speed (maybe they are on their mobile phones or trying to change their heating on their car computer screens), and if I am in a slower lane just behind them, I have no option but to undertake unless I slam my brakes on.

"Undertaking" isn't specifically illegal. However, if you move left to pass it's very likely you will, if seen, be done for Driving without Due Care and Attention.

Just staying in lane to pass when "traffic is moving in queues" is not an offence of any kind, indeed the Highway Code recommends you don't lane-hop in congestion as it adds risk. However it does as you say add the risk of people moving left without looking.

A lane hogger is a bit of a halfway house between those, but on smart motorways when you've got everyone doing about 70 in lanes 2, 3 and 4 it sort of is moving in queues. I suspect the Police view would be if you could move right to overtake you should, but if you can't, e.g. because you're in a lorry and they're sat in the middle lane doing 55 (does happen), they'd probably not do anything.

 

[bramling]

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

Having said that, I have undertaken, but only when I am certain that the 'undertakee' has shown no intention of changing lanes. Also, some motorists randomly reduce their speed (maybe they are on their mobile phones or trying to change their heating on their car computer screens), and if I am in a slower lane just behind them, I have no option but to undertake unless I slam my brakes on.

It’s certainly not good practice to undertake, but I can understand why people do it. Personally I wouldn’t undertake without a free lane (or hard shoulder) to the left. It’s dodgy, as if you have someone who is displaying a lack of awareness by being in the wrong lane, it’s certainly not inconceivable they will likewise lack awareness if they do suddenly have the urge to move lanes.

On a related note, I would like to see a significant tightening and enforcement of people changing lanes to the *right*. Many people seem to feel they can simply put their indicator on and do as they feel, including forcing others to have to brake to accommodate them, or into gaps which aren’t there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a related note, I would like to see a significant tightening and enforcement of people changing lanes to the *right*. Many people seem to feel they can simply put their indicator on and do as they feel, including forcing others to have to brake to accommodate them, or into gaps which aren’t there.

There does need to be a lot more weight put, for all types of road user from pedestrian to the biggest lorry, on the core driving principle that you should not take an action that requires another vehicle to change speed or direction in order to avoid a collision, unless the priorities provided by the rules of the road would require them to give you priority. Trouble is that to enforce that you need Police on the ground to see it, and motorway policing has been near non-existent since civilian Traffic Officers took over most of the role.

 

[Annetts key]

You don't want to brake heavily with a burst tyre either, you'll spin out.

Having experienced a burst tyre (caused by a pot hole), on the front, it’s extremely difficult to continue to try to drive in a straight line. You have to slow down and stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Interesting comments by Mark Harper today on Smart Motorways

No, he’s lying. Roads not open to general traffic are the safest. But as no one bothers to collect data (statistics) for this small number, it’s not included.

Smart motorways are nearly always in areas where there was already traffic congestion. Hence the average speeds are likely to be slower. This may well skew the statistics.

If morons are stopping on the hard shoulder for reasons other than mechanical or electrical breakdowns, that says more about the lack of enforcement action due to not enough traffic police.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

Some “drivers” appear not to look to their right or in their mirrors when moving to the lane to their right either. Had a couple of these people competing for a Darwin Award on Sunday.

 

[Ediswan]

Having experienced a burst tyre (caused by a pot hole), on the front, it’s extremely difficult to continue to try to drive in a straight line. You have to slow down and stop.

The outcome can be variable. I once rapidly deflated both nearside tyres on the same object. First thing I noticed was the change of noise. Second was the dashboard informing me of two flat tyres. Steering was barely affected. It was a winding road and I had no difficulty following the road while stopping. They were not run flat tyres.

 

[zwk500]

Having experienced a burst tyre (caused by a pot hole), on the front, it’s extremely difficult to continue to try to drive in a straight line. You have to slow down and stop.

100%, but you take your foot off the pedal and GENTLY press the brake. Especially if it's a front tyre, you don't want to suddenly increase the load on it.

 

[johncrossley]

That’s using a sledgehammer to crack a nut territory. If we’re saying that people are stopping on hard shoulders for dubious reasons then there’s other ways of dealing with that, not least by increasing fines and enforcement.

Enforcement is very difficult. Whereas with a limited number of laybys you can put cameras in each one as a deterrent. It would be hard to justify a fine higher than a speeding fine, yet most motorists have a cavalier attitude towards speeding and don't worry about being caught speeding except when there is a speed camera. That's stupid, because there could be a speed trap anywhere, but that shows the risk taking mentality of the typical motorist. They think they are untouchable when there are no speed cameras. So if motorists don't even worry about being caught speeding, which is easy to detect anywhere using a speed trap, then they will have zero worry about stopping on a hard shoulder which seems more innocent and harder to police.

 

[Bald Rick]

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

It’s not illegal.

When I do it, I prefer to leave a full lane between us (eg they in lane 3, me in 1; or 4 vs 2… I often think 4 vs 1 is quite a prize), preferably with a spare lane or hardshoulder available to my left, and I‘m always watching the near side front wheel of the car I’m going past for any slight change in direction.

Undertaking" isn't specifically illegal. However, if you move left to pass it's very likely you will, if seen, be done for Driving without Due Care and Attention.

I disagree. It’s very unlikely. Especially if you explained to any officer that a) you were very carefully paying attention to all the other vehicles around you and describe the situation you encountered, b) had a plan what to do if the circumstances changed (eg the car you were passing suddenly changed direction), and c) pointed out that the only reason you were doing it was because some f’ing idiot(s) was not paying due care and attention themselves by being sat in lane 3 doing 65mph.

 

[zwk500]

and c) pointed out that the only reason you were doing it was because some f’ing idiot(s) was not paying due care and attention themselves by being sat in lane 3 doing 65mph.

I have always wondered ohw effective this defence would be...

 

[Bald Rick]

I have always wondered ohw effective this defence would be...

Let’s just say it has worked for me!

The officer concerned opened with “why do you think I’ve stopped you”, to which I replied “well I assume when I hit 85mph coming out of the roadworks, because you were hovering in and out of my blind spot all the way through them at exactly 50mph, and wanted to accelerate away from you”, which rather disarmed him. (He was in an unmarked Skoda vRS, I was in an Audi V6, I did 50-70 in about 3 secs but was surprised to see him following suit just off my offside rear quarter, so put my foot down again to give me space, when I got to indicated 90 the blue lights came on).

He then said that, no it was undertaking earlier on, before the roadworks, to which I replied that it was a perfectly legitimate move, I had left loads of space, they had shown no sign of changing course for some time, I had space to move out the way if they did change course suddenly, and none of them had to take any action as a result of what I did. I even suggested that they probably didn’t even notice.

And that was that. On your way sir.

 

[telstarbox]

Hahaha!

 

[mikeb42]

Several posters have referred to 'undertaking'. I always thought it was illegal to undertake, unless you were in slow moving traffic. I also think that it is a particularly dangerous manouevre since many motorists, when changing lane, do not necessarily look to their left and there is a blind spot as well.

I would almost never do it, except when there is an entire empty lane to my offside, and usually at night when there is a lot of space. Then all contingency planning is done on the assumption that the undertakee is barely aware of where they are or what they are doing and may do almost anything with no warning. Though on the countless occasions this scenario has played out over the years I've never seen one do anything other than carry on exactly the same in their own oblivious little world.

About the only time I've ever seen one come to their senses and get out of the way was in rather last millisecond response to wrong-way driver coming towards them at full tilt in lane 4. I suppose it proved they were actually looking out of the windscreen contrary to all other available evidence.

On the original subject of Smart Motorways it was notable that neither the technology nor any human monitoring had noticed the wrong way driver to the point of putting some signage up. Though on my 999 call moments later the handler said the incident had already been logged. Signage of "Oncoming Vehicle" appeared shortly after. A bit late though...

 

[PeterC]

Has someone passed a law that says after 10 pm you must drive in lane 3 of 4 lane motorways at all times regardless of... absolutely everything?

At 23:30 at the very southern end of the M1 I once set cruise control to 60 in lane 1 to see the effect on fuel consumption. I undertook 3 cars before reverting to manual control.

 

[jfollows]

I gave up bothering years ago, I tried sticking to the rules, I once did the thing mentioned above going round someone in the middle lane a couple of times by overtaking then slowing down and letting them overtake me etc. But they were completely oblivious to what I was doing.
Now if I'm in lane 1 on a relatively quiet motorway and catch up with the 65mph driver in lane 2 I just carry on going, I'm not aggressive, I don't try and startle them or honk my horn or whatever, I just sail past and continue.
And, no, two wrongs don't make a right. I'm just less aggressive or militant about "obeying the rules" and relax and take things as they come. The fact that vast numbers of other drivers can't drive sensibly is now just a fact and not something to get worried or annoyed about. Probably something to do with increasing age.

 

[Intercity110]

And it would be better if there was better advance signing for lane drops. For example, after a junction when the carriageway returns to four lanes after a lane drop, can there not be a sign which says '4 lanes for the next 10 miles' or similar with occasional reminders, and an advance alert of a lane drop - e.g. 'Motorway drops to 3 lanes in 2 miles'

you'll have people complaining of 'road furniture' (or something like that) then.

 

[dangie]

Not motorways but others: Lane markings.
When you’re in a town or city or in fact anywhere you haven’t driven before, lane markings at junctions and large multi-lane roundabouts can often be confusing to say the least. Which lane am I supposed to be in?

We have a large roundabout near to us on the A5. This roundabout is usually very busy. Approaching the roundabout the outside lane has road arrows indicating straight on and right. Many vehicles going straight on use this lane. No problem, the arrow says you can. Unfortunately following this lane the road arrow then goes to right only. There is no straight on. This results in drivers having to brake, indicate and move left, unless they continue round the roundabout and start again. I drive this route frequently, I’m always glad when I’ve passed it.

 

[telstarbox]

Can you send a link to the location?