"Smart" fare dodgers - even smarter guard !

[Mintona]

I am confuased, on a train from Dover to Rochester the driver would open the doors.

Sorry for being pedantic.

 

[1V53]

My two most satisfying incidents were:

Three young lads get on and dive in toilet. I calmly wait by toilet (large loo on 158) and at next stop a large number of people are getting up and coming towards me to get off. Toilet door opens and the three emerge, as they do so I announce to the half dozen pax waiting to alight 'oh... Look... Three young boys in the toilet together, that's just wrong, what on earth have you been doing with each other in THERE?'. Cue three very red faces and stifled laughter from pax. Priceless.

Another time two young lads ignoring requests for tickets, despite shouting at them, standing in vestibule with back to me staring out of door window. Guessing they were getting off at next stop, I walk away and wait for vestibule door to close, quietly walk down front coach and inform them I will just be opening the door at the far end at next stop. Into second coach of 2 car 158 and announce loudly if getting off at next stop to come to the door at the far end (pointing). Get to next stop, pax alight, get half dozen or so on at local door. Cue running footsteps as I close local door. "oh did you want to get off there? Let's see your tickets then". The satisfaction of getting those fares was priceless. I discovered that I play with myself and am a part of a woman's anatomy once they had alighted, I simply replied "yep, but I got your money sad lads" as I close the doors

 

[Flamingo]

Similar to an incident I had the earlier this week. After departure from terminus I commence full ticket check, and note female passenger in deep coma like sleep. None of the usual tricks to wake her worked. So I carried on and came back as it was 30 mins to first stop. Now I could tell she was not asleep as her eyelids were flickering - she was quite obviously pretending.

Anyway, I suspected she was only going to the first stop. So I quietly sat in the vacant seat next to her. And waited. Sure enough the automatic PIS announces the station and other passengers stand up. Just as we are entering the platform the lady suddenly comes out of her coma and calmly goes to get up. That was until she noted I was sat next to her. "Excuse me, I need to get off here" - that's ok. The doors won't open till I open them. Can I see your ticket please? "oh yes, I need to buy one". I don't know which was funnier. The look on her face when she realised I was sat there, or the look on everyone elses face when the watched me nobble her.

After I try all the usual tricks to waken (up to and including blowing my whistle), I then say loudly to the other passengers - "I need some help here, I have somebody who is unconscious, anybody able to help?", and then start into the "It's all right, I'm the train guard, I'm just trying to help you, can you hear me?" and start assessing their level of consciousness and if they respond to painful stimuli (as they are failing to respond to verbal stimuli). I've never found one yet who doesn't wake up to the barrel of a pen being pressed against their nailbed (try it ). The trick is to make sure everybody else knows they are unresponsive, as then you are rendering first aid

 

[Welshman]

After I try all the usual tricks to waken (up to and including blowing my whistle), I then say loudly to the other passengers - "I need some help here, I have somebody who is unconscious, anybody able to help?", and then start into the "It's all right, I'm the train guard, I'm just trying to help you, can you hear me?" and start assessing their level of consciousness and if they respond to painful stimuli (as they are failing to respond to verbal stimuli). I've never found one yet who doesn't wake up to the barrel of a pen being pressed against their nailbed (try it ). The trick is to make sure everybody else knows they are unresponsive, as then you are rendering first aid

Thank you, Famingo. You partly answered a question forming in my mind as I read this thread - i.e. what can you do to try to waken a passenger these days that won't result in your being charged with assault?

 

[moonrakerz]

I am confuased, on a train from Dover to Rochester the driver would open the doors.

Sorry for being pedantic.

I am not an expert on these type of train (first time I had been on one of those) - why did he open the door to the little compartment ? I could see buttons and some blue lights in there, assumed he had control of the doors - as on my local trains.

 

[Mojo]

I am not an expert on these type of train (first time I had been on one of those) - why did he open the door to the little compartment ? I could see buttons and some blue lights in there, assumed he had control of the doors - as on my local trains.

The buttons in those panels on Electrostars only allow for the guard to close the doors and give bell codes to the driver.

 

[Fincra5]

Thats the good thing about the guard releasing the doors. Where as the driver does it

 

[All Line Rover]

It's a real pity that these incidents cannot be filmed for us all to enjoy. :cry:

They'd also make a good "anti-fare dodgers" advert for ATOC!

 

[Nym]

Or how about 2 women going into the same toilet together, same effect as 2 men going into the same toilet together - not right.

Unless one happened to be a carer for the other of course.

I know it's taking it back a bit, but who in this world would think that a 20 year old has a 21 year old carer, on a Friday night, in Manchester, with the 20 year old quite drunk and 'innocent looking' then looking quite embarrassed when leaving the disabled with me.

Luckily i knew most of the late shift TPE Guards (Or did then when the 1029/0001 off airport where my trains home), so a simple, "Don't ask" with the look on his face and my county card and his ticket & railcard (Disabled) being shown got us seated in 1st to avoid the (para) "Drunk gentlemen". Anyway there does seem to be a lot more facilities on trains than on stations sometimes.

Anyway, have had occations between HUL and BDT where BTP where called out to Beverley (And attended) to remove faredodgers. This route it's not hard to fit in a full ticket check between Hull & Beverley. Same occurrence on buses with old day savers, and on pain of death, non-valid old pepole's passes.

Oh and PS: The situation on the 185 was made necessary by (I'm struggling to not swear here) on Piccadilly not allowing access into the Disabled toilet, even with a Disabled Railcard.

 

[HugePilchard]

Maybe fitting toilet doors with ticket barriers is the way forward?

 

[All Line Rover]

Maybe fitting toilet doors with ticket barriers is the way forward?

Maybe so... I don't see why not.

Although once a "ticket inserter" is installed on the side of the toilet door, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to install a "£1 coin inserted" next to it!

Cue Michael O'Leary...

 

[Flamingo]

Thank you, Famingo. You partly answered a question forming in my mind as I read this thread - i.e. what can you do to try to waken a passenger these days that won't result in your being charged with assault?

I think a fare-dodger would be hard pressed to bring a charge for assault in these circumstances. Apart from everything else, it would involve them calling BTP, and the conversation going something like:
Passenger to BTP: "I want to report this Train Guard for assault, he prodded me with his ticket stampers"
BTP to Guard: "Did you?"
Guard to BTP: "Yes, I was doing a full ticket check and they would not wake up to allow me to inspect their ticket - they still won't show it to me"
BTP to Passenger "Do you have a ticket?"
Passenger to BTP: "But yea but no but yea but no, I lost it, my mate had it for me..." etc
BTP to Passenger: "I am arresting you for travelling without possession of a valid ticket, you have the right..." etc.

 

[40fan]

Two examples involving myself from very many years ago.

1. I unlocked the toilet door just before a station stop. Was just about to open it when an extremely aggressive guard kicked the door open and accused me of fare dodging. I asked him why, "you're in the toilet." I asked him which byelaw prevented me from using the toilet and furthur more informed him that if he ever did such a stupid thing again I would have no hesitation in calling the police.

2. Sitting minding my own business reading a magazine when suddenly a fist knocked it out of my hands. Another 'idiot' demanding a ticket. I told him in no uncertain terms what exactly I thought of him.

 

[b0b]

I think a fare-dodger would be hard pressed to bring a charge for assault in these circumstances. Apart from everything else, it would involve them calling BTP, and the conversation going something like:
Passenger to BTP: "I want to report this Train Guard for assault, he prodded me with his ticket stampers"
BTP to Guard: "Did you?"
Guard to BTP: "Yes, I was doing a full ticket check and they would not wake up to allow me to inspect their ticket - they still won't show it to me"
BTP to Passenger "Do you have a ticket?"
Passenger to BTP: "But yea but no but yea but no, I lost it, my mate had it for me..." etc
BTP to Passenger: "I am arresting you for travelling without possession of a valid ticket, you have the right..." etc.

You better watch out for the smart passenger, that will choose to remain silent to the "Did you?" answer, and leave you at risk for the assault accusation. Not to mention the BTP should take an assault accusation much more seriously - just because someone is sleeping and you want to see their ticket doesn't give you the right to assault them, even if think prodding them with clippers isn't, just be careful.

 

[DarloRich]

Train toilet doors should be set to open automatically after a set time, e.g. five minutes. Should be long enough for most things that people need to do in there.

But how can you read the paper & do you business in five minutes. As a bloke i like a relaxing period of time in which to make a deposit, consider world events, take in the sports news and some of the comment pages.

As a man it is my right, nay duty, to take as long as possible in the toilet. It is one of the few places we have left. Soon they will want to take away our sehds and garages!

As for the OP - good work by the gaurd. But should they not have got a penalty?

 

[SouthEastern-465]

But how can you read the paper & do you business in five minutes. As a bloke i like a relaxing period of time in which to make a deposit, consider world events, take in the sports news and some of the comment pages.

Thats pretty much spot on, I think you speak on behalf of most of us!

 

[bAzTNM]

Saw this happen on the Airdrie - Bellgrove in Glasgow route. Two drug addled sorts stagger on at Garrowhill and dive straight into the toilets. A woman who was in front of them said that both of them (guy and a woman) were in the toilets. Ticket inspector dives for the toilet door and starts punching it. "I'm ready when you are!", "I'll not be moving from here until you two get out", "I've goat aw day!!". The two of them eventually stagger out, it looked like they had no money and he threw them off at the next stop. I believe it was Shettleston.

 

[island]

I am confuased, on a train from Dover to Rochester the driver would open the doors.

Sorry for being pedantic.

From what it sounds like, the guard locked off the door from which he expected the passengers to alight.

 

[WestCoast]

I suspect a few guards on Northern have locked the toilets at certain times (they can't all be out-of-order can they?).

Hiding in the toilet must be an age-old trick, and one that guards and RPIs should keep a close eye out for. Sadly, some do seem oblivious to it and it probably is rather tricky to monitor this on busy, large trains with frequent stops. Hiding in the toilets also prevents a legitimate user from accessing the facilities.

Some of the most successful dodgers appear to be those who try to just ignore the guard when they ask for "tickets from X". Again if it's a large, busy train the guard may not be able to remember who has been inspected.

 

[junglejames]

The buttons in those panels on Electrostars only allow for the guard to close the doors and give bell codes to the driver.

Thats interesting. Im convinced ive seen guards opening doors from them. They are always pressing 2 buttons simultaeneously as soon as we stop anyway, and this is directly followed within milliseconds by the doors releasing. I shall have to check next time.

 

[Mike395]

Thats interesting. Im convinced ive seen guards opening doors from them. They are always pressing 2 buttons simultaeneously as soon as we stop anyway, and this is directly followed within milliseconds by the doors releasing. I shall have to check next time.

Nope, definitely released by the driver on the Southeastern 375s (and 395s for that matter) - the guard put the key in to unlock the controls and hold open the local door as soon as the train stops, but nothing more

 

[MikeWh]

Nope, definitely released by the driver on the Southeastern 375s (and 395s for that matter) - the guard put the key in to unlock the controls and hold open the local door as soon as the train stops, but nothing more

Surely the key isolates that door from the driver's control, so if it's open it stays open but if it's closed it doesn't get released to be opened by pushing the button?

 

[Mike395]

Surely the key isolates that door from the driver's control, so if it's open it stays open but if it's closed it doesn't get released to be opened by pushing the button?

Correct - although once the guard closes the doors and wants to close his local tour, he doesnt need to press the 'close' button, he just turns the key and that closes the local door, ready for him to 'buzz' the driver to depart

 

[bengley]

I suspect a few guards on Northern have locked the toilets at certain times (they can't all be out-of-order can they?).

Hiding in the toilet must be an age-old trick, and one that guards and RPIs should keep a close eye out for. Sadly, some do seem oblivious to it and it probably is rather tricky to monitor this on busy, large trains with frequent stops. Hiding in the toilets also prevents a legitimate user from accessing the facilities.

Some of the most successful dodgers appear to be those who try to just ignore the guard when they ask for "tickets from X". Again if it's a large, busy train the guard may not be able to remember who has been inspected.

On the FGW sleeper a few days ago I had my ticket checked at Paddington as soon as I got on the train. No problem. So I fell asleep (as you do on a sleeper) and was violently woken up at about 6:30am by the guard checking tickets. I wasn't happy about being woken up so I said, loudly and angrily to him, 'I'VE BEEN ON SINCE PADDINGTON'.

He looked shocked, then turned around and walked off.


Might I also add that people in the south west don't seem to understand what a sleeper train is - they get on and happily make loads of noise and chat with their mates at stations after about 6am.

 

[WestCoast]

I wasn't happy about being woken up so I said, loudly and angrily to him, 'I'VE BEEN ON SINCE PADDINGTON'.

He looked shocked, then turned around and walked off.

Well obviously it's a bit different on a sleeper, but I have seen a few people say things like that on a normal train and then they didn't really board at Paddington or wherever.

Guards are not infallible you know, they can't record everyone's movements. If there is a change of guard, often a full ticket check will occur.

 

[Greenback]

On the FGW sleeper a few days ago I had my ticket checked at Paddington as soon as I got on the train. No problem. So I fell asleep (as you do on a sleeper) and was violently woken up at about 6:30am by the guard checking tickets. I wasn't happy about being woken up so I said, loudly and angrily to him, 'I'VE BEEN ON SINCE PADDINGTON'.

He looked shocked, then turned around and walked off.


Might I also add that people in the south west don't seem to understand what a sleeper train is - they get on and happily make loads of noise and chat with their mates at stations after about 6am.

The guard was probably a bit shocked by your reaction.

In the South West, the sleeper is a day service to get to places like Truro, Redruth and Penzance so it's hardly surprising that local people treat it as a day train.

 

[moonrakerz]

Hiding in the toilet must be an age-old trick, and one that guards and RPIs should keep a close eye out for. Sadly, some do seem oblivious to it and it probably is rather tricky to monitor this on busy, large trains with frequent stops.

Looking back at this incident, the two "dodgers" couldn't have been that bright anyway.
The train was far from busy, the stop where they got on was in the middle of nowhere and I doubt if many people got on there - so it wouldn't have been difficult for the guard to see that a couple of passengers were "missing" when he walked through. All he had to do then was to see which loos were occupied.

 

[WestCoast]

Looking back at this incident, the two "dodgers" couldn't have been that bright anyway.
The train was far from busy, the stop where they got on was in the middle of nowhere and I doubt if many people got on there - so it wouldn't have been difficult for the guard to see that a couple of passengers were "missing" when he walked through. All he had to do then was to see which loos were occupied.

Yes, in this specific situation, they were a bit stupid to think that it wouldn't have been noticed.

However on a busy, large train it may well have gone unnoticed.

 

[Flamingo]

Well obviously it's a bit different on a sleeper, but I have seen a few people say things like that on a normal train and then they didn't really board at Paddington or wherever.

Guards are not infallible you know, they can't record everyone's movements. If there is a change of guard, often a full ticket check will occur.

Doing a full check after taking over a train, I once had a passenger saying "You've already seen my ticket coming out of London"
"No sir, I've only just got on, I'm doing a full check"
"You already saw it, it was you".
"No sir, my colleague from London is not only six inches taller than me, but he is African"

He did have a ticket, though - just not very observant!

Another chap - "You've already seen my ticket!"
"No sir, you are the first person I have asked on board"
He didn't have one (and ended up with a £250 fine, as BTP happened to be at the next station, and he was carrying stuff he shouldn't have been).

 

[Nym]

That raises a strange question, is it illegal to carry live firearms on a train? (if you're licensed to carry it)

Or was the guy carrying some Class A/B/C?

Honestly didn't get a train around Folkstone when on training... honest... I walked all the way back to Dover...