Slightly complex delay repay

[Jackoref]

I recently made a journey from Doncaster to Cardiff Central using a combination of split tickets.
These tickets were:-
Advance single Doncaster to Sheffield (£2), journey made on a Northern service

Off peak day single Sheffield to Chesterfield (£5.60)
Advance single Chesterfield to Derby (£6.55)
Advance single Derby to Birmingham (£8.30)
Advance single Birmingham to Cheltenham Spa (£13.25)
All of these were with Cross Country

Off peak return Cheltenham Spa to Cardiff (£26)
Cross Country from Cheltenham to Bristol Parkway then GWR to Cardiff.

I was due to travel on the 17:20 from Doncaster, changing at Sheffield and Bristol Parkway to arrive in Cardiff at 21:21.
The Northern service from Doncaster to Sheffield was about 15 late, which resulted in me missing my connection onto the Cross Country service. I therefore had to take the 18:20 to Birmingham which was also late. If it had run to time, I would have got an earlier connection at Birmingham. In fact, I had to catch the 20:07 to Bristol Parkway and the 21:41 to Cardiff. This arrived at 22:21 (a couple of minutes late), so my journey was delayed by exactly 60 minutes.

Under delay repay, I am therefore entitled to 100% refund of single fares and 50% of returns. I calculate this to be £48.70.

But who should pay it?!? Three TOCs involved, all of whom had services which ran late. If Northern's service had ran to time, I would have caught the earlier Cross Country services which both ran to time so there's a case for Northern coughing for the whole lot.

But it was Cross Country who were the most delayed, so should they be the ones to pay.

GWR were only 2 minutes late, but it was that delay which tipped me over the magic 60 minute mark. Are they liable for any of it?

I've sent the details of this to both Cross Country and Northern and will wait to hear back as to what they propose. Do they communicate with each other to split the amount accurately in cases like these? If not, and they jointly pay more than the amount I am entitled to, is there a legal obligation to pay some back (and if so, who to?) or am I ok sticking any excess into a charity pot?

If they pay back less, who do I complain to?

 

[alistairlees]

It was Northern that caused your initial delay, so it should be sent to them.

 

[robbeech]

Agreed. Northern ar responsible. I suspect there will be problems trying to get the total value. They’ll likely just send you £2. But keep fighting.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I recently made a journey from Doncaster to Cardiff Central using a combination of split tickets.
These tickets were:-
Advance single Doncaster to Sheffield (£2), journey made on a Northern service

Off peak day single Sheffield to Chesterfield (£5.60)
Advance single Chesterfield to Derby (£6.55)
Advance single Derby to Birmingham (£8.30)
Advance single Birmingham to Cheltenham Spa (£13.25)
All of these were with Cross Country

Off peak return Cheltenham Spa to Cardiff (£26)
Cross Country from Cheltenham to Bristol Parkway then GWR to Cardiff.

I was due to travel on the 17:20 from Doncaster, changing at Sheffield and Bristol Parkway to arrive in Cardiff at 21:21.

OK. I presume you made your journey on Friday 18th January, based on the delays you have mentioned, so you are well in time with your claim (you have 28 days from the date of the journey).

The Northern service from Doncaster to Sheffield was about 15 late, which resulted in me missing my connection onto the Cross Country service. I therefore had to take the 18:20 to Birmingham which was also late. If it had run to time, I would have got an earlier connection at Birmingham. In fact, I had to catch the 20:07 to Bristol Parkway and the 21:41 to Cardiff. This arrived at 22:21 (a couple of minutes late), so my journey was delayed by exactly 60 minutes.

Indeed, this all checks out; a missed connection at Sheffield results in a not insubstantial delay due to the timings of the trains (and the fact that Northeast-Southwest through XC services are only hourly).

Under delay repay, I am therefore entitled to 100% refund of single fares and 50% of returns. I calculate this to be £48.70.

Yes, this calculation is correct.

But who should pay it?!?

Northern. The basic principle for delayed journeys involving multiple train companies is that the first operator who causes your journey to become delayed is liable for all of the compensation. Note that it is about your journey, and not the constituent trains: if you have a planned long connection somewhere and your train into there is half an hour late, but does not cause you to miss your connection, and then your connecting train is also half an hour late, then it would be the second operator you would claim for, as they would be the ones who had caused your journey to become delayed.

That example doesn't apply in this case, as the mere 7 minute connection at Sheffield means that even a minor delay to the Northern service will inevitably result in a substantial delay to your journey - it was them who caused your journey to become delayed and it is them who are liable for the compensation arising from the delay.

Three TOCs involved, all of whom had services which ran late.

Indeed, however it is only the TOC that caused your journey to become delayed that is liable.

If Northern's service had ran to time, I would have caught the earlier Cross Country services which both ran to time so there's a case for Northern coughing for the whole lot.

Indeed, this is the correct answer. They caused your journey to initially become delayed, as they caused you to miss a connection (the effects of which are irrecoverable on a journey such as this, unlike journeys with a lot of change time at each interchange station).

But it was Cross Country who were the most delayed, so should they be the ones to pay.

It doesn't matter how delayed each constituent operator's services are - all that matters is whether they caused your journey to become delayed. CrossCountry didn't, so this doesn't matter.

GWR were only 2 minutes late, but it was that delay which tipped me over the magic 60 minute mark. Are they liable for any of it?

No, they are not liable for any compensation as they didn't cause the journey to become delayed; they merely added to the delay.

I've sent the details of this to both Cross Country and Northern and will wait to hear back as to what they propose.

I expect CrossCountry will refer you to Northern, if they don't try and reject your claim on the laughable alleged basis that "we don't pay compensation for split ticket journeys" (something I've heard quite often from them). Northern should pay out in full, but their delay compensation claim handling is known to be very poor, so do not be surprised if they take a long time or reject your claim incorrectly. Sometimes they even have the audacity to suggest your claim is fraudulent!

Do they communicate with each other to split the amount accurately in cases like these?

Cases might be shared from one TOC to another if the claim has initially been made to the incorrect TOC, but there is never shared liability under the way the system works, so they wouldn't communicate to split the amount they pay. TOCs belonging to the same owner (e.g. XC and Northern are both owned by Arriva) may share a common underlying database of claims, but I don't believe that information is routinely shared unless there is a misdirected claim.

If not, and they jointly pay more than the amount I am entitled to, is there a legal obligation to pay some back (and if so, who to?) or am I ok sticking any excess into a charity pot?

Yes; if you are overpaid, or paid incorrectly, you should inform the relevant TOC and ask them how they want you to repay it. Some will give you the details of how to do this; others may simply thank you for your honesty and let you keep the money (especially if you say you will donate it to charity).

If they pay back less, who do I complain to?

Initially you would escalate the matter internally. If you can't reach a resolution internally, be that because 40 working days (approx. 8 weeks) have passed without the matter being resolved, or because you have received a "letter of deadlock", whichever is the first, then you can take the matter to the recently introduced Rail Ombudsman. Alternatively, you could, as I did in this case, take the matter to the County Court (the Rail Ombudsman was not yet in force at the time of my journey). However, I would like to hope that Northern will pay up in full; I have found that phoning them can sometimes result in the matter being resolved if it has been outstanding for a while (as the Customer Services and delay compensation departments seem to be separate).

 

[_toommm_]

Northern do take a while to sift through the delays (as I'm sure you can imagine with the delays at the moment) but they have been quite good for me in getting it right first time, albeit taking a bit longer like I mentioned.

I presume you wrote the itinerary down that you took and gave it to Northern, or they may have some difficulty working out what services you took.

 

[Jackoref]

Northern do take a while to sift through the delays (as I'm sure you can imagine with the delays at the moment) but they have been quite good for me in getting it right first time, albeit taking a bit longer like I mentioned.

I presume you wrote the itinerary down that you took and gave it to Northern, or they may have some difficulty working out what services you took.

Thanks all for the replies.
Yes - I put down all the trains I took and ForTheLoveOf correctly deduces it was Friday. I will await Northern's response!