Sleepers to Europe (Nightstar?)

[orpine]

I was wondering recently why there weren't any sleeper trains through the Chunnel, and while briefly looking into it discovered that the idea had been considered and abandoned in 1997; for those who like me didn't know about this, it was called "Nightstar" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

So I'm curious - does anyone know more about this? All wikipedia says is that it was cancelled for "lack of commercial viability".
It's now 18 years since the cancellation and rail-use has massively increased across the board; has no-one considered doing it again?
Although I guess everyone still flies everywhere that's further away than Paris... Not having a night train to the continent does severely restrict travel options if you're unwilling to fly.

 

[cf111]

Cheap flights have made this even more of a non-starter. If you don't want to fly there's always the short (and some longer) ferry crossings.

 

[quantinghome]

It's a nice idea, but if you look at European mainland sleepers they seem to be in sharp decline. So I can't see there's a market for it.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I was wondering recently why there weren't any sleeper trains through the Chunnel

Presumably a lot of maintenance goes on at night?

 

[orpine]

Cheap flights have made this even more of a non-starter. If you don't want to fly there's always the short (and some longer) ferry crossings.

Yes, but they break up the trip and add considerable connection times.
You have to get to the port, then get the ferry, then get from the ferry back to the train.

If I'm going to Europe I like to be able to take the train; it's the only environmentally responsible option. A night train would open a lot of options - you'd arrive at the destination refreshed rather than in a travel fugue.

It's a shame really, sleepers are a great way to travel.

 

[grumblingalong]

The idea of boarding in London and waking up in Germany/France/Italy/Spain would really attract me, especially at PRIV/FIP rate

 

[30907]

The other thing to flag up is that the trains were only planned to run UK regions to Paris/Brussels rather than London to points beyond (that would have introduced enormous complexity , but might have been more use).

 

[OxtedL]

Previous threads on this:

Why are there no sleeper services between London and continental Europe? (June 2010)

Has a UK to Europe sleeper ever been considered? (July 2014)

Could sleeper trains run through the Channel Tunnel? (April 2015)

 

[Mag_seven]

The other thing to flag up is that the trains were only planned to run UK regions to Paris/Brussels rather than London to points beyond (that would have introduced enormous complexity , but might have been more use).

Like Regional Eurostars these were promised as a sop to non SE England MP's in order to get their support for the Channel Tunnel bill. Then of course guess what, once the tunnel was built all of a sudden these promised services became "unviable" and never saw the light of day.

 

[cf111]

Yes, but they break up the trip and add considerable connection times.
You have to get to the port, then get the ferry, then get from the ferry back to the train.

If I'm going to Europe I like to be able to take the train; it's the only environmentally responsible option. A night train would open a lot of options - you'd arrive at the destination refreshed rather than in a travel fugue.

It's a shame really, sleepers are a great way to travel.

While all that is true, they are cheap and people are willing to be inconvenienced if it's cheap. A "Nightstar" operation wouldn't be able to compete on price with the existing options.

 

[34D]

The other thing to flag up is that the trains were only planned to run UK regions to Paris/Brussels rather than London to points beyond (that would have introduced enormous complexity , but might have been more use).

This is incorrect, in addition to the West Country, Manchester and Glasgow to Paris or Brussels the plan also included such as London to Amsterdam and possibly Cologne.

 

[Gordon]

I was wondering recently why there weren't any sleeper trains through the Chunnel, it was called "Nightstar" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

So I'm curious - does anyone know more about this? All wikipedia says is that it was cancelled for "lack of commercial viability".

The term "lack of commercial viability" is a bit of a euphemism. Like the regional Eurostars, Nightstar was doomed to failure due to the security restrictions imposed by the UK government at the time of the Channel Tunnel opening.


.

 

[neonison]

The idea of boarding in London and waking up in Germany/France/Italy/Spain would really attract me, especially at PRIV/FIP rate

Back in 1980 this was possible, at least between Victoria and Gare de Nord. It was called the Night Ferry. In my experience you were woken by the rough shunting on and off the ferry but it was a pricey novelty.

 

[30907]

This is incorrect, in addition to the West Country, Manchester and Glasgow to Paris or Brussels the plan also included such as London to Amsterdam and possibly Cologne.

I stand corrected for using Wikipedia not research

 

[phil1960]

The other issue the operators had to contend with was setting up security and passport checking facilities at stations the Nightstar trains were planned to call at. Ditto for North of London (NoL) day time Eurostar services.

Even in 2015 when Eurostar introduced their Marseille train they had to plan it around a 60+ minute stop at Lille on the UK bound journey so as passengers could de-train and go through tunnel security and UK border checks.

Phil

 

[stut]

In my experience you were woken by the rough shunting

Paging Finbarr Saunders, Finbarr Saunders to the courtesy phone please!

 

[Gordon]

Back in 1980 this was possible, at least between Victoria and Gare de Nord. It was called the Night Ferry. In my experience you were woken by the rough shunting on and off the ferry but it was a pricey novelty.

The Night Ferry ran to Paris and Brussels via Dover Western Docks and Dunkerque port. The portions then ran to Dunkerque Ville where they were divided.

It survived long enough to be transferred from the old Dunkerque inner port which involved a lock gate (thus adding even more to the excess noise guaranteed to wake you up) to the new Dunkerque Ouest port in the late 1970s. Of course then the train was hauled from the port by loud American 1940s Baldwin diesels - another chance to wake you up!

The other issue the operators had to contend with was setting up security and passport checking facilities at stations the Nightstar trains were planned to call at. Ditto for North of London (NoL) day time Eurostar services.
Phil

Just to flesh out my earlier comment, the actual border control issue was one barrier to it ever being viable, as the British government was not prepared to allow the train to pick up passengers freely at intermediate stations like a traditional European international night train, with controls then taking place on board the train. Every station where the train stopped would have had to be fitted out like a former Iron Curtain border station (fences, gates etc)

The other was the concern about fire risk and other safety parameters which demanded that the trains be equipped with all sorts of extra features. Plus of course the UK didn't build a dedicated French loading gauge line to the tunnel in time for the tunnel opening. This meant that traditional European sleeper/couchette coaches could not be used from day 1, which would have been the most economical option.

Similar restrictions of course meant that no local through-the-tunnel service was ever started, despite the first train to carry passengers through the tunnel being pretty ordinary - a Thameslink class 319!





.

 

[ag51ruk]

The Night Ferry ran to Paris and Brussels via Dover Western Docks and Dunkerque port. The portions then ran to Dunkerque Ville where they were divided.

It survived long enough to be transferred from the old Dunkerque inner port which involved a lock gate (thus adding even more to the excess noise guaranteed to wake you up) to the new Dunkerque Ouest port in the late 1970s. Of course then the train was hauled from the port by loud American 1940s Baldwin diesels - another chance to wake you up!



Just to flesh out my earlier comment, the actual border control issue was one barrier to it ever being viable, as the British government was not prepared to allow the train to pick up passengers freely at intermediate stations like a traditional European international night train, with controls then taking place on board the train. Every station where the train stopped would have had to be fitted out like a former Iron Curtain border station (fences, gates etc)

The other was the concern about fire risk and other safety parameters which demanded that the trains be equipped with all sorts of extra features. Plus of course the UK didn't build a dedicated French loading gauge line to the tunnel in time for the tunnel opening. This meant that traditional European sleeper/couchette coaches could not be used from day 1, which would have been the most economical option.

Similar restrictions of course meant that no local through-the-tunnel service was ever started, despite the first train to carry passengers through the tunnel being pretty ordinary - a Thameslink class 319!
.

I'm not sure this is true - I was involved in the procurement of the Nightstock coaches while working for BR and they were perfectly capable of running throught the Tunnel. It was the rise of low cost airlines that mostly killed them off. I also remember being able to board Eurostars in both directions without any form of passport control, and being checked on board by UK border control agents on trains back into the UK.