Sleeper Network Growth

[Bartsimho]

How about it? Demand for trains would not increase by much as domestic flights offer something trains don't, ie time efficiency, whatever the cost, and the number of seats on planes are already small relative to the number of seats on trains.


Not going to happen.

But when someone decides on how to travel they look at several factors: Cost, Speed, Comfort and Convenience. By changing the Cost of Flying upwards it changes the calculation people make. Trains have the advantage when it comes to comfort especially domestically and the Convenience is slightly nebulous as number of connections and central locations.

 

[JonathanH]

By changing the Cost of Flying upwards it changes the calculation people make.

Indeed. How much air passenger duty are you proposing? About £100 each way and you might have a point. £10 isn't going to do it.

 

[Bartsimho]

Indeed. How much air passenger duty are you proposing? About £100 each way and you might have a point. £10 isn't going to do it.

I'd chuck it as Reduced Rate of £40, Standard Rate of £70 and Higher Rate of £140. There didn't used to be a difference but from April there is a Domestic category but I would add a provision that any GB to NI or ROI Flights are at the currently proposed lower rate due to the water being in the way.

Rates for Air Passenger Duty

Check which rates of Air Passenger Duty you need to pay if you’re a plane operator, and how to fill in your return to HMRC.

www.gov.uk

 

[JonathanH]

I'd chuck it as Reduced Rate of £40, Standard Rate of £70 and Higher Rate of £140. There didn't used to be a difference but from April there is a Domestic category but I would add a provision that any GB to NI or ROI Flights are at the currently proposed lower rate due to the water being in the way.

Yes, well £6.50 is neither here nor there. Reduced Rate of £100, Standard Rate of £200 and Higher rate of £400 and maybe there will be enough for sleeper travel, although I guess smaller planes might be needed as well.

 

[Ken H]

So someone living in Manchester is flying long haul from Heathrow. Flight about 0930. They can get a connecting flight from Manc Airport about 0600 and check in their luggage and it will be transferred to their long haul flight at heathrow. Sorry, a £100 surcharge wont transfer them to a sleeper and then a transfer to Heathrow from Euston. for many the convenience is worth the surcharge.

 

[HSTEd]

Even if APD was driven sky high, I doubt you would get that much market growth for the sleepers.

I'd imagine long distance sleeper coaches would make a killing simply because their lower speed is not particularly a disadvantage over the comparatively short distances that commercial UK sleeper services would operate over.

An overnight coach can get a long distance in one night even at only 56mph. And a big double deck sleeper coach likely has smaller operating costs than sleepers will - at least without radical changes to the way they operate.

 

[The Ham]

How about it? Demand for trains would not increase by much as domestic flights offer something trains don't, ie time efficiency, whatever the cost, and the number of seats on planes are already small relative to the number of seats on trains.


Not going to happen.

Even if APD was driven sky high, I doubt you would get that much market growth for the sleepers.

I'd imagine long distance sleeper coaches would make a killing simply because their lower speed is not particularly a disadvantage over the comparatively short distances that commercial UK sleeper services would operate over.

An overnight coach can get a long distance in one night even at only 56mph. And a big double deck sleeper coach likely has smaller operating costs than sleepers will - at least without radical changes to the way they operate.

Whilst APD could do with increasing, primarily it should be against easy wins for the railways (i.e. not trying to get people back to sleepers), for example any flight which has a competing rail journey of (say) less than 4 hours should see a very high APD (say £100), whilst anything of 4-6 hours the rate being somewhere between the two (say £40) and anything more than 6 hours being fairly low (say £15).

 

[JonathanH]

I'd imagine long distance sleeper coaches would make a killing simply because their lower speed is not particularly a disadvantage over the comparatively short distances that commercial UK sleeper services would operate over.

They would suffer exactly the same problem that the Megabus sleeper coach suffered and the Caledonian Sleeper suffers, that is that the passenger load and amount passengers are prepared to pay simply can't provide a cost efficient operation.

There is not a 'killing' to be made.

An overnight coach can get a long distance in one night even at only 56mph. And a big double deck sleeper coach likely has smaller operating costs than sleepers will - at least without radical changes to the way they operate.

I agree that the distances work, but layout is a challenge, as is the specialist nature of the vehicles.

 

[stuu]

Even if APD was driven sky high, I doubt you would get that much market growth for the sleepers.

I'd imagine long distance sleeper coaches would make a killing simply because their lower speed is not particularly a disadvantage over the comparatively short distances that commercial UK sleeper services would operate over.

An overnight coach can get a long distance in one night even at only 56mph. And a big double deck sleeper coach likely has smaller operating costs than sleepers will - at least without radical changes to the way they operate.

Sleeper buses suffer from the same issue as trains - the layout means they can't be used in the daytime, at least not as efficiently as standard buses.

Distances in the UK are mostly too short for sleepers. Unless phase 1 is scrapped, hs2 will get Central Scotland below 4 hours, so the combination of evening train and cheap hotel will be even more compelling.