Sleeper Network Growth

[Bald Rick]

My point is there's almost a million journeys by plane from the Central Belt to the SW each year so there is a market

Actually there’s not a million air passengers from the central belt to the SW each year.

Using 2019 (last year Pre covid) there were around 800,000 air passengers between the central belt and Bristol / Exeter / Newquay each year, ie 400,000 each way.

The most recent 2022 monthly figures from CAA suggest the market has not fully recovered, and is around 10-20% below that. At best its 1000 a day each way. The London - Central belt air market is 5-6 times bigger, and there’s also a much bigger rail market. And it’s more lucrative, with lots more business travel and high value (ie not British) tourists doing the trip.

That’s still a market, but you would have to tempt at least 10-20% of them off the plane and on to the more expensive / much longer sleeper in order to ‘just’ lose as much money as the Caley Sleepers do (around £100 per passenger).

 

[Wychwood93]

Actually there’s not a million air passengers from the central belt to the SW each year.

Using 2019 (last year Pre covid) there were around 800,000 air passengers between the central belt and Bristol / Exeter / Newquay each year, ie 400,000 each way.

The most recent 2022 monthly figures from CAA suggest the market has not fully recovered, and is around 10-20% below that. At best its 1000 a day each way. The London - Central belt air market is 5-6 times bigger, and there’s also a much bigger rail market. And it’s more lucrative, with lots more business travel and high value (ie not British) tourists doing the trip.

That’s still a market, but you would have to tempt at least 10-20% of them off the plane and on to the more expensive / much longer sleeper in order to ‘just’ lose as much money as the Caley Sleepers do (around £100 per passenger).

To lose £100 for one passenger journey is unfortunate, to lose £100 per passenger per journey is............ Mr Micawber would have views on this sort of sub-optimal business practice. Somewhat unfortunate that the tab for such losses is picked up by all taxpayers!

 

[Bald Rick]

Somewhat unfortunate that the tab for such losses is picked up by all taxpayers!

Scottish taxpayers, in the case of CS. I like to think of it as a rebate for the Barnett formula when I use it.

 

[ABB125]

Here's a sample of European sleeper services, as best I can work out, for comparison with the UK. Information includes planned train composition, the notional owner of the carriages, and any formation changes during the journey.

• Zurich-Amsterdam. This has 1 couchette car, 1 sleeper car (both NightJet-branded) and 4 seat coaches (SBB). At Basel, there is a reversal and loco change (from SBB to DB); an additional 4 seated coaches (DB), 3 couchettes and another sleeper (NJ) are added. At Frankfurt there's another reversal and loco change (to NS), but the whole train continues to Amsterdam.
• Berlin-Graz. This is rather more complicated. Three coaches (1 sleeper, 1 couchette, 1 seated) are part of a train to Budapest; these coaches are Hungarian. Another three coaches (one of each again, NJ stock this time) form the Graz portion. An additional three Polish seated coaches are stuck on the end. This train uses a PKP loco as far as Bohumin, where there is a reversal and change to a CD loco. The three PKP seat coaches are dropped (they might carry on somewhere else, but I can't find out), and five new Polish coaches from Warsaw are added: three (one of each type) are going to Budapest, two (1 seat, 1 sleeper) to Graz. The formation is now Budapest coaches in the middle, and Graz coaches at either end. At Breclav, the formation changes again: shunting happens, and an OBB loco takes forward the two Graz portions; the Budapest portion, meanwhile, carries on with a different CD loco, along with 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper (CD stock) from Prague, and 2 Hungarian seated coaches starting in Breclav.
• Vienna-Hamburg, even more complicated! The base service is Innsbruck and Vienna to Hamburg and Amsterdam, but some nights there's an additional Vienna to Brussels portion. First off, from Vienna there is 1 OBB seat coach, 2 NJ couchettes and 1 NJ sleeper for Hamburg; 2 seats, 2 couchettes, 1 sleeper for Amsterdam (all NJ); and, 3 nights a week, 1 seat, 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper to Brussels (NJ again). Brussels potion at the front, Amsterdam middle and Hamburg at the back. This train goes as one to Nuremburg. (Loco allocation will be covered later!) Meanwhile, from Innsbruck, there is 1 seated coach (OBB, everything else is NJ), 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper for Hamburg, and 2 seats, 2 couchettes and a sleeper for Amsterdam; there are also 3 car-carrying wagons. Interestingly, the Amsterdam portion is in the middle, between the two Hamburg sections. An OBB loco takes the train as far as Munich, where a reversal takes place and another loco carries the train onwards to Nuremburg. At Nuremburg, in less than an hour, some hideous shunting happens that I can't explain as I don't have several hours available to try to work it out! Out of Nuremburg comes two trains: one for Hamburg, with the loco from Munich, in the order of 4 coaches from Innsbruck, then 4 from Vienna, then the 3 car wagons; and one to Amsterdam (and Brussels), in the order Vienna-Brussels, Vienna-Amsterdam, Innsbruck-Amsterdam. On nights where the Brussels portion DOESN'T run, this train then continues peacefully to Amsterdam; there is a single NS loco booked throughout. When the Brussels portion DOES run, naturally it's a bit more complicated. The train runs as before, but at Cologne it splits; and, on these nights, it uses an OBB loco instead of an NS one. From Cologne, the Brussels portion carries on with the OBB loco it's had from Vienna as far as Aachen, whereupon an SNCB loco takes over. Meanwhile, the Amsterdam portion is taken forward for the remainder of its journey by an NS loco.

You thought the Caledonian Sleeper was a complex operation? Pah, you know nothing!

So, clearly multi-portion running is viable over long distances; these long-distance overnight trains typically depart their origins between 2000-2200, and arrive at their destinations around 0800-1000 (the Berlin train mentioned above is an exception). Obviously the fact that there are lots of spare locos available across Europe, along with facilities for complex shunting (and staff available to do it!) helps somewhat, but it shows that where there's a will there's a way...

Seeing as this is the speculative section, I propose that the Highland Sleeper also has a Bristol/Exeter portion, which combines with the London portion at Crewe (the London portion can then avoid Birmingham, as this market would instead be served by the Bristol/Exeter portion. Alternatively, portions could combine in Bescot yard instead). One mega-train (at least 24 coaches) would then power up the WCML to Millerhill yard, where lots of shunting would take place, to facilitate a portion from everywhere south to everywhere north. (I very much doubt this could take place in Edinburgh station!). On certain days, an Edinburgh-Swansea portion would also run, splitting off the Exeter portion at Bristol Parkway (although, here's a thought! <crayon mode> It could detach at Crewe, then use the Heart of Wales line instead. The coaches could be hauled by one of the redundant Avanti voyagers, which also gives extra passenger capacity for all those very early morning commuters on the HoW line...</crayon mode>). The most important part of this plan is that a large fleet of new couchette cars is built (couchettes seem to make up most of the beds on Europe), and possibly some of those new NightJet pod things as well.
I look forward to all the constructive feedback that my idea will receive!

 

[irish_rail]

My OP related to the fact that many in Europe are switching to sleepers which are slower and in some cases more expensive for the benefits to the environment over short haul air travel. I honestly believe that people would switch if there was any degree of a service. That has to be at least one of the factors behind the growth in sleepers on mainland Europe.

I have never been on an overnight coach, and judging by the reviews on YouTube never will, and not everyone wants to go through the hassle of flying, driving or a daytime service.

Geographically Exeter and Plymouth are literally just a straight line north to Glasgow. Yet the railway at present forces the passenger onto the east side of the country and up the ECML. Whereas the road network and planes take a nice direct northbound trajectory. Yet if as I suggested earlier there were trains from the south west up the WCML its more direct and cutting down on pointless mileage.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Here's a sample of European sleeper services, as best I can work out, for comparison with the UK. Information includes planned train composition, the notional owner of the carriages, and any formation changes during the journey.

• Zurich-Amsterdam. This has 1 couchette car, 1 sleeper car (both NightJet-branded) and 4 seat coaches (SBB). At Basel, there is a reversal and loco change (from SBB to DB); an additional 4 seated coaches (DB), 3 couchettes and another sleeper (NJ) are added. At Frankfurt there's another reversal and loco change (to NS), but the whole train continues to Amsterdam.
• Berlin-Graz. This is rather more complicated. Three coaches (1 sleeper, 1 couchette, 1 seated) are part of a train to Budapest; these coaches are Hungarian. Another three coaches (one of each again, NJ stock this time) form the Graz portion. An additional three Polish seated coaches are stuck on the end. This train uses a PKP loco as far as Bohumin, where there is a reversal and change to a CD loco. The three PKP seat coaches are dropped (they might carry on somewhere else, but I can't find out), and five new Polish coaches from Warsaw are added: three (one of each type) are going to Budapest, two (1 seat, 1 sleeper) to Graz. The formation is now Budapest coaches in the middle, and Graz coaches at either end. At Breclav, the formation changes again: shunting happens, and an OBB loco takes forward the two Graz portions; the Budapest portion, meanwhile, carries on with a different CD loco, along with 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper (CD stock) from Prague, and 2 Hungarian seated coaches starting in Breclav.
• Vienna-Hamburg, even more complicated! The base service is Innsbruck and Vienna to Hamburg and Amsterdam, but some nights there's an additional Vienna to Brussels portion. First off, from Vienna there is 1 OBB seat coach, 2 NJ couchettes and 1 NJ sleeper for Hamburg; 2 seats, 2 couchettes, 1 sleeper for Amsterdam (all NJ); and, 3 nights a week, 1 seat, 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper to Brussels (NJ again). Brussels potion at the front, Amsterdam middle and Hamburg at the back. This train goes as one to Nuremburg. (Loco allocation will be covered later!) Meanwhile, from Innsbruck, there is 1 seated coach (OBB, everything else is NJ), 2 couchettes and 1 sleeper for Hamburg, and 2 seats, 2 couchettes and a sleeper for Amsterdam; there are also 3 car-carrying wagons. Interestingly, the Amsterdam portion is in the middle, between the two Hamburg sections. An OBB loco takes the train as far as Munich, where a reversal takes place and another loco carries the train onwards to Nuremburg. At Nuremburg, in less than an hour, some hideous shunting happens that I can't explain as I don't have several hours available to try to work it out! Out of Nuremburg comes two trains: one for Hamburg, with the loco from Munich, in the order of 4 coaches from Innsbruck, then 4 from Vienna, then the 3 car wagons; and one to Amsterdam (and Brussels), in the order Vienna-Brussels, Vienna-Amsterdam, Innsbruck-Amsterdam. On nights where the Brussels portion DOESN'T run, this train then continues peacefully to Amsterdam; there is a single NS loco booked throughout. When the Brussels portion DOES run, naturally it's a bit more complicated. The train runs as before, but at Cologne it splits; and, on these nights, it uses an OBB loco instead of an NS one. From Cologne, the Brussels portion carries on with the OBB loco it's had from Vienna as far as Aachen, whereupon an SNCB loco takes over. Meanwhile, the Amsterdam portion is taken forward for the remainder of its journey by an NS loco.

You thought the Caledonian Sleeper was a complex operation? Pah, you know nothing!

So, clearly multi-portion running is viable over long distances; these long-distance overnight trains typically depart their origins between 2000-2200, and arrive at their destinations around 0800-1000 (the Berlin train mentioned above is an exception). Obviously the fact that there are lots of spare locos available across Europe, along with facilities for complex shunting (and staff available to do it!) helps somewhat, but it shows that where there's a will there's a way...

Seeing as this is the speculative section, I propose that the Highland Sleeper also has a Bristol/Exeter portion, which combines with the London portion at Crewe (the London portion can then avoid Birmingham, as this market would instead be served by the Bristol/Exeter portion. Alternatively, portions could combine in Bescot yard instead). One mega-train (at least 24 coaches) would then power up the WCML to Millerhill yard, where lots of shunting would take place, to facilitate a portion from everywhere south to everywhere north. (I very much doubt this could take place in Edinburgh station!). On certain days, an Edinburgh-Swansea portion would also run, splitting off the Exeter portion at Bristol Parkway (although, here's a thought! <crayon mode> It could detach at Crewe, then use the Heart of Wales line instead. The coaches could be hauled by one of the redundant Avanti voyagers, which also gives extra passenger capacity for all those very early morning commuters on the HoW line...</crayon mode>). The most important part of this plan is that a large fleet of new couchette cars is built (couchettes seem to make up most of the beds on Europe), and possibly some of those new NightJet pod things as well.
I look forward to all the constructive feedback that my idea will receive!

This checks out. I approve

 

[tbtc]

Geographically Exeter and Plymouth are literally just a straight line north to Glasgow. Yet the railway at present forces the passenger onto the east side of the country and up the ECML. Whereas the road network and planes take a nice direct northbound trajectory

You want to go in a straight line north from Plymouth to Glasgow?

Good luck getting funding for a Plymouth - Swansea - Machynlleth - Llandudno - Kirkcudbright - Cumnock - Glasgow service, i guess, but there’s probably a reason that the railway (and the road network) aren’t exactly a straight line between the cities

AFAICS the Birmingham - WCML - Glasgow services are a lot busier nowadays, starting at London, than they were when starting at a Plymouth, which maybe tells a story about where real demand is

Unless someone builds your fast line through Machlynneth, it’s always going to be slower via rail to Glasgow. But that’s okay , it’s not a big enough market to justify spending billions of pounds on, and you’d need to spend billions of pounds to make rail fast enough to compete over that kind of distance - focus on the markets where rail works best, don’t worry about competing with every flight when there are hundreds of other bits of fruit that are lower hanging

 

[The Ham]

You want to go in a straight line north from Plymouth to Glasgow?

Good luck getting funding for a Plymouth - Swansea - Machynlleth - Llandudno - Kirkcudbright - Cumnock - Glasgow service, i guess, but there’s probably a reason that the railway (and the road network) aren’t exactly a straight line between the cities

AFAICS the Birmingham - WCML - Glasgow services are a lot busier nowadays, starting at London, than they were when starting at a Plymouth, which maybe tells a story about where real demand is

Unless someone builds your fast line through Machlynneth, it’s always going to be slower via rail to Glasgow. But that’s okay , it’s not a big enough market to justify spending billions of pounds on, and you’d need to spend billions of pounds to make rail fast enough to compete over that kind of distance - focus on the markets where rail works best, don’t worry about competing with every flight when there are hundreds of other bits of fruit that are lower hanging

Indeed, although some of those improvements (such as a HS line North of HS2 towards Scotland) would also reduce journey times for those making other trips (such as SW to Scotland).

However passengers making such a trip are likely to be minor (almost rounding errors) when it comes to if building that HS line is viable.

 

[irish_rail]

You want to go in a straight line north from Plymouth to Glasgow?

Good luck getting funding for a Plymouth - Swansea - Machynlleth - Llandudno - Kirkcudbright - Cumnock - Glasgow service, i guess, but there’s probably a reason that the railway (and the road network) aren’t exactly a straight line between the cities

AFAICS the Birmingham - WCML - Glasgow services are a lot busier nowadays, starting at London, than they were when starting at a Plymouth, which maybe tells a story about where real demand is

Unless someone builds your fast line through Machlynneth, it’s always going to be slower via rail to Glasgow. But that’s okay , it’s not a big enough market to justify spending billions of pounds on, and you’d need to spend billions of pounds to make rail fast enough to compete over that kind of distance - focus on the markets where rail works best, don’t worry about competing with every flight when there are hundreds of other bits of fruit that are lower hanging

My point is the WCML makes a broadly direct route between the south west and Scotland whilst going via the east coast is going way out of the way. As The Ham points out, once HS2 opens, then frankly places other than London probably should be better connected and isn't connecting the regional cities what XC is supposed to be about?

 

[30907]

This checks out. I approve

It is impressive, but also a bit of a bodge.
The core NJ model is 2 2-portion trains which meet en route and swap portions, giving 4 for the price of 2 as it were. It is still seen at Villach nightly where Vienna/Munich-Rome/Milan swap portions (Milan now extended to Genoa and La Spezia), and was originally the case at Nuremberg until the Vienna-Brussels portion started.
It gets more complicated when other railways get involved, as with ABB125's other examples - and there is a 4-way swap at Salzburg every night involving Austrian, Czech, Hungarian and Croatian/Serbian stock from Vienna, Munich, Venice and Zagreb. (It was "only" 3-way till last month, but the last two now run independently over the Tauern route.)

 

[JamesT]

My point is the WCML makes a broadly direct route between the south west and Scotland whilst going via the east coast is going way out of the way. As The Ham points out, once HS2 opens, then frankly places other than London probably should be better connected and isn't connecting the regional cities what XC is supposed to be about?

If you want to go up the WCML, change at Birmingham?

 

[irish_rail]

If you want to go up the WCML, change at Birmingham?

Yeah I could (even if New st is an awful place to change at) but plenty aren't prepared to change, especially elderly or infrequent travellers. Also, changing slows down the end to end journey time , so all in all doesn't really solve the problem.

 

[Flavio Bassi]

Hello! Night trains are my passion, so I studied the matter since a long time.
I'd have a personal idea: trains of today should make better use of their spaces, with more imagination. Based on this fact, I tried to design a whole train, based on current European sleepers but changing some element and adding others; I obtained carriages with a lot of unusual services: apart from real private bedrooms with bathroom/shower, there are spaces for personal work, art exhibitions, mini cinema, mini gym, shops, school/university lessons, etc.; the result should be comfortable and useful for long trips (day&night and multi day), wherever in the world there are extended railways.
I also imagined a new way of designing travel routes, to reach more stops with the same train, in order to gain more passengers.
Considering the number of beds in the train, and the few economic data I had, I verified with a basic business plan: it works. I compared also with the OBB case, a company which is expanding night trains, so I suppose it has a net gain from them.
The work is published in a book. I made everything by myself, publishing house included, so yes, I am someone with a bee in his bonnet and no credentials. However, the book is making some sales, so there are people in the world who put ideas before their speaker.
If anyone is interested in the project, please let me know.

 

[paul1609]

My point is the WCML makes a broadly direct route between the south west and Scotland whilst going via the east coast is going way out of the way. As The Ham points out, once HS2 opens, then frankly places other than London probably should be better connected and isn't connecting the regional cities what XC is supposed to be about?

It depends where in Scotland you want to go. To Edinburgh the existing cross country route is less than 30 miles further than going to New Street and via the WCML but the ECML offers far more intermediate traffic. The WCML has the disadvantage that between Preston and the central belt it basically serves 170 miles of sheep moor. Glasgow also has the disadvantage that unless you miss out the city centre its very difficult to serve any further destinations.

 

[jagardner1984]

Does make you wonder whether in the conjoined worlds of "levelling up" and "climate crisis" - there will be increasing pressures to, as the French have done, restrict, tax or ban domestic flights where the train is available. The problem as perfectly outlined in this thread is that we view much of rail travel as THE route, if you want to get from London to Glasgow, this is THE route you must take. However, this serves poorly any places not specifically on that one route, and often offers little better alternative than travelling into London and joining on the end of THE route.

Personally I think the poor finances of existing sleeper operations will kill the chances of any expansion stone dead, but in terms of simple routing choices, 800k passengers per year would suggest that for day trains at least, there should be a more attractive offer for tomorrow than a 6 hour rail journey non direct (closer to 8 hours if a change in New Street is not your thing) with a cool £143 off peak single fare. I don't suppose easyJet (£53 single tomorrow) are worrying any time soon.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does make you wonder whether in the conjoined worlds of "levelling up" and "climate crisis" - there will be increasing pressures to, as the French have done, restrict, tax or ban domestic flights where the train is available.

As I’ve explained in other threads, the French have not banned any domestic flights.

What they have done is ban the sale of wholly domestic tickets on flights where the rail alternative is under 2.5 hrs.

If the same was done here, it would only affect the sale of domestic only tickets between London and Manchester. Given that there are only 6/7 flights each way per day, and the overwhelming majority of passengers on them are connecting at Heathrow, there would be a negligible effect.

 

[paul1609]

As I’ve explained in other threads, the French have not banned any domestic flights.

What they have done is ban the sale of wholly domestic tickets on flights where the rail alternative is under 2.5 hrs.

If the same was done here, it would only affect the sale of domestic only tickets between London and Manchester. Given that there are only 6/7 flights each way per day, and the overwhelming majority of passengers on them are connecting at Heathrow, there would be a negligible effect.

As I understand the French legislation there has to be a direct train serivce less than 2 1/2 hours between the city that the the airport is situated in and the destination (connections are not counted). Thus Orly airport is affected but Charles de Gaulle is not.
On this basis you could still run domestic flights to Manchester from Gatwick (West Sussex), Luton and Stansted but not Heathrow or London City.
Apparently it only currently affects 3 routes from Orly.

 

[jagardner1984]

Presumably it is intended a statement of intent more than anything … the clock is ticking on domestic flights.

Of course the irony in a country several times the land area is that many longer journeys are made at far higher speeds, and would certainly laugh at the idea of a journey Glasgow to Bristol taking (using the “direct” train) over 7hrs and 45 mins (compared to a flight time of 57 minutes last night according to Flightradar.)

Doubtless if any UK legislation was introduced (and I see little political capital to deliver it at the moment), it would be written to the circumstances we have here.

 

[class26]

Presumably it is intended a statement of intent more than anything … the clock is ticking on domestic flights.

Of course the irony in a country several times the land area is that many longer journeys are made at far higher speeds, and would certainly laugh at the idea of a journey Glasgow to Bristol taking (using the “direct” train) over 7hrs and 45 mins (compared to a flight time of 57 minutes last night according to Flightradar.)

Doubtless if any UK legislation was introduced (and I see little political capital to deliver it at the moment), it would be written to the circumstances we have here.

But the Glasgow - Bristol service currently goes the "long way round" . if it went directly via Brum presumably it could get down to aroubnd 5.5 hours ?

 

[The Planner]

But the Glasgow - Bristol service currently goes the "long way round" . if it went directly via Brum presumably it could get down to aroubnd 5.5 hours ?

Depends on the stopping pattern, but 5½ is doable. Worth noting that Bristol Airport is still 35 minutes from town by bus.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course the irony in a country several times the land area is that many longer journeys are made at far higher speeds, and would certainly laugh at the idea of a journey Glasgow to Bristol taking (using the “direct” train) over 7hrs and 45 mins

Glasgow to Bristol is a journey not dissimilar to Lyon to Rennes, both in distance and size of cities.

There are no direct trains from Lyon to Rennes - you must change in Paris (using two lines for the transfer). Journey times range from 4-6 hrs. Les Français would only laugh at our seeming inability to change trains.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Glasgow to Bristol is a journey not dissimilar to Lyon to Rennes, both in distance and size of cities.

There are no direct trains from Lyon to Rennes - you must change in Paris (using two lines for the transfer). Journey times range from 4-6 hrs. Les Français would only laugh at our seeming inability to change trains.

Sorry that's incorrect. There are 3 direct trains from Lyon to Rennes at
06.30
11.46
16.29

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry that's incorrect. There are 3 direct trains from Lyon to Rennes at
06.30
11.46
16.29

I stand corrected. They didn’t come up on any journey planners I checked though!

 

[ABB125]

I stand corrected. They didn’t come up on any journey planners I checked though!

I suspect that's because SNCF want everyone to use TGVs (via Paris) rather than regional trains

 

[30907]

I suspect that's because SNCF want everyone to use TGVs (via Paris) rather than regional trains

They are TGVs - via the southern suburbs of Paris.
AFAIK the cross-country service only gets as far as Nantes.

 

[ABB125]

They are TGVs - via the southern suburbs of Paris.
AFAIK the cross-country service only gets as far as Nantes.

Serves me right for not researching before posting!

However, I was sort of correct...

 

[paul1609]

Depends on the stopping pattern, but 5½ is doable. Worth noting that Bristol Airport is still 35 minutes from town by bus.

I suspect the reality is that only a very small proportion of the existing air market originates in Bristol City Centre or is headed for Glasgow City Centre.
Bristol is very much the regional airport for a big area including South Wales and down to Plymouth Exeter and the Dorset Coast. Glasgow Airport as a destination is similarly spread over a wide area as opposed to for instance Edinburgh where the destination is centred on tourist traffic to the city centre.
You have to take in to account real journeys to ascertain the market not headline city centre to city centre times.

 

[Kingston Dan]

I suspect the reality is that only a very small proportion of the existing air market originates in Bristol City Centre or is headed for Glasgow City Centre.
Bristol is very much the regional airport for a big area including South Wales and down to Plymouth Exeter and the Dorset Coast. Glasgow Airport as a destination is similarly spread over a wide area as opposed to for instance Edinburgh where the destination is centred on tourist traffic to the city centre.
You have to take in to account real journeys to ascertain the market not headline city centre to city centre times.

Not sure that's the case anymore. Pre-covid Edinburgh airport was getting on for twice as busy as Glasgow 14m:8m ppa. It's not just tourists that Edinburgh attracts, the financial services sector accounts for a big chunk of demand, along with international flights for a large part of east and central Scotland - the bus connections from the airport show the catchment - Central Scotland/Fife/Dundee in addition to the Lothians and borders. Edinburgh airport being on the west of the city is much more convenient for a lot of central Scotland as it is accessible without struggling through any city.

 

[Bartsimho]

A more fleshed out idea which would require hampering domestic flights as well. We are a fairly small island with a pretty extensive train network. How about a new Air Passenger Duty for domestic flights and then demand for trains increases as cost swing back in favour of the railways.

Then more extensive sleeper trains and Cross-Country trains could run with the extra demand to move around the country. A car journey is more tiring then all other journey's especially if at night or alone with the level of concentration required and air travel would be more expensive.

This would help the Sleeper trains as well as rail in general

 

[JonathanH]

How about a new Air Passenger Duty for domestic flights and then demand for trains increases as cost swing back in favour of the railways.

How about it? Demand for trains would not increase by much as domestic flights offer something trains don't, ie time efficiency, whatever the cost, and the number of seats on planes are already small relative to the number of seats on trains.

Then more extensive sleeper trains and Cross-Country trains could run with the extra demand to move around the country.

Not going to happen.