Sleeper Network Growth

[LLivery]

Birmingham is I believe under active consideration. Manchester would be difficult due to platform lengths, though easier than it was because of the line to Preston being wired and would be at a very antisocial hour.

Ah, interesting. Both would be great, but it's good to hear Birmingham is at least being considered. Manchester would be good if you could connect with the early-hours TPE service too. I guess with the wiring, you could use either via Bolton or Eccles & Wigan to access.

 

[stuu]

1 percent of Cornwall annual visitors? If so that's quite a lot of money! But its not just tourism, but connectivity as well and so called levelling up. People often forget Cornwall is one of the poorest parts of the "old EU". Hence why any decision to axe the sleepers becomes much harder. 600k people who live in Cornwall, thats the size of a large city , and outside of the trendy resorts, there isn't alot of wealth. Certainly wouldn't look good . But then as geographically it is in the south it may be considered fair game if it means a project up north can remain.

1% clearly isn't a lot, and not running it would have little meaningful impact on tourist numbers. Its about the same capacity as three IET carriages. Would the subsidy be better spent running extra daytime services? Or reducing local ticket prices?

 

[Mikey C]

If even 5% of visitors to Cornwall by road tried to switch to rail, the trains would be swamped. There is no conceivable rail service that could begin to cope with Cornwall's tourist numbers, not least because trains do not go to many of the places that tourists do. Cornwall's economy absolutely depends on the private car, which is why millions continues to be spent on improving the A30 (Carland Cross - Chiverton Cross dual carriageway coming soon).

And the Stonehenge tunnel.

 

[The exile]

The last London - Newcastle train now leaves at 22:00 and takes 03:53; HS2's journey time calculator gives 03:40 for London to Glasgow so I don't think last trains between London and the Central Belt leaving at 21:00 or later's massively unrealistic, especially if passenger numbers have rebounded by the time it's open.

Arriving or departing from a city-centre station at 3 o’clock in the morning is all well and good if that’s where your base is - but pretty darn useless if you’re coming from / going to somewhere else by anything other than car. Sleepers have the advantage of leaving and arriving when other services are still operating (ok, not at all intermediates…)

 

[irish_rail]

1% clearly isn't a lot, and not running it would have little meaningful impact on tourist numbers. Its about the same capacity as three IET carriages. Would the subsidy be better spent running extra daytime services? Or reducing local ticket prices?

There would be questions on how Cornish get into London (not to mention south west MPs) at a decent hour, unless a daytime train ran earlier, say leaving Penzance at 4am and arriving London for 9. How workable that would be is debatable. Similarly in the other direction the sleeper is useful for those who want a weekend in Cornwall but don't want to be leaving London Friday evening and arriving Cornwall after midnight. The riviera clearly serves a purpose hence why it is still going. If this zombie government does get rid of it, I suspect it may return as and when a new government gets into power and the economic situation improves.

 

[lachlan]

How are you going to accommodate more people on rail (with all their luggage)? Four tracks to Penzance, trains every ten minutes?
Cornwall knows it needs tourism which is why the road network is being improved. I am not advocating cutting the rail network in Cornwall nor reducing services, but people should be realistic about the role that rail plays in bringing tourists into Cornwall, or can ever play.

Spending money on improving the rail network instead of on roads would be a good start. Many are comfortable taking huge cases on to the train, as I saw for myself yesterday on LNER.

 

[12LDA28C]

Europe offers longer journeys and more sources of passengers. Personally I don’t fancy the idea of a sleeper unless it was very luxurious. I can’t see how you’d regulate the temperature and fresh air enough to sleep, apart from the train noise.

So you've never travelled on a sleeper train? It's certainly not difficult to sleep in my experience, even in the seated coach. Waking up in the morning as the train winds its way through Cornwall, or forges north through the Scottish highlands is one of the great joys of rail travel in my humble opinion.

Maybe you should try it, you might be surprised.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you've never travelled on a sleeper train? It's certainly not difficult to sleep in my experience, even in the seated coach. Waking up in the morning as the train winds its way through Cornwall, or forges north through the Scottish highlands is one of the great joys of rail travel in my humble opinion.

Maybe you should try it, you might be surprised.

Definitely an individual thing. I can't sleep if it's not dark, horizontal and silent. Sleepers mostly manage 1/3, a seat manages none of them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well axing the sleeper certainly isn't going to accommodate more people on rail to Cornwall. New sidings at Long Rock will allow more 9 and 10 car trains into Cornwall and that will help a little and other options include extending some of the Plymouth terminators into Cornwall, plus improving the spread over the day of footfall persuading more to travel outside of the 1004 to 1504 (ex London) peak. Small gains are better than no gains or indeed reverse gains.

But axing the Sleeper might well accommodate more people on rail in Cornwall. What if the money used for the sleeper was used much more productively in improving other aspects of the train service to and within Cornwall? You’d certainly get more output for the money out in.

 

[Ken H]

Isnt there an issue with bits of the railway closing for part of the night for maintenance. or to save a signalmans shift? That could ramp up train costs.

 

[12LDA28C]

Definitely an individual thing. I can't sleep if it's not dark, horizontal and silent. Sleepers mostly manage 1/3, a seat manages none of them.

Fair enough. I suppose 35 years of travelling by train all over the country at all hours of the day and night as well as 25 years of shiftwork have conditioned me to be able to sleep at any hour of the day or night whether in a bed, seat, or in some cases, on the floor. I haven't tried the Mk 5s on the CS yet but I wouldn't foresee an issue.

The former 1V32/33 and corresponding 1S19 sleepers between the south west and Scotland were great for getting plenty of kip whilst accumulating lots of loco-hauled mileage in the process.

 

[The Prisoner]

Just looking on the OBB Nightjet site and they have six new routes for 2023. They can't be running at a loss to be introducing all these new routes? There must be a fundamental issue with either what the UK is offering by way of a sleeper service in terms of facilities, pricing and routes.

I note that some of the OBB services are seasonal, and many don't run every night allowing greater coverage (people obviously plan around when the services run). They also offer motorail on many of the services.

I would expect that a Glasgow - Manchester - Birmingham - Bristol - Devon - Cornwall service running every other night say May - September would do OK. The service could run down one night and then back the next to save the need for additional stock.

 

[Mikey C]

…But the proper using the heavily subsidised Sleeper aren’t horny handed sons of toil, they are more likely to be wealthy people from London/ Home Counties travelling to their second homes

And I imagine a lot of Cornish people would not consider it a great benefit to have a sleeper service heavily used by London second home owners anyway.

Indeed anything that encourages second home ownership would be pretty unpopular...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I imagine a lot of Cornish people would not consider it a great benefit to have a sleeper service heavily used by London second home owners anyway.

Indeed anything that encourages second home ownership would be pretty unpopular...

Is it heavily used in that way? Most such people arrive by car with e.g. their supermarket shop already done (one reason second home owners are so reviled compared to e.g. campers/hotel guests, because they spend next to nothing in the local economy).

 

[Energy]

would expect that a Glasgow - Manchester - Birmingham - Bristol - Devon - Cornwall service running every other night say May - September would do OK.

I'm doubtful of significant demand. You can't stop at stations equally spaced with a sleeper since few will want to board at 2am, for a sleeper there needs to be a stop or two, then a long period of nothing to let people sleep then a few stops, like the Night Riviera and Caledonian Sleeper. The UK is like Japan in being a fairly straight line North to South with large cities along it, great for HS2 but not for sleepers. HS2 is also a consideration...

 

[mike57]

I have often wondered if the some (most) of the sleeper services would be better meeting up and shunting somewhere in the Birmingham area, South West sleeper splits, some tacked onto a revised Lowland sleeper, some carry on down to London. Perhaps route the Lowland from Birmingham via Derby Sheffield and ECML, with the Highland sticking to its current WCML route. With say a 10pm departure and a 7am arrival at the ends you have 9 hours to complete the journey and do any shunting. London departure carries both SW and Lowland etc.

This seems to be how a lot of European sleepers work, with trains reformed during the night with coaches from various destinations being shunted to give the range of services, with sometimes just one sleeper and maybe one seated car for a particular destination and even examples of trains made up from multiple different national operators.

Would SW sleeper passengers care that are going the long way around. It could give more journey options.

 

[The Planner]

I have often wondered if the some (most) of the sleeper services would be better meeting up and shunting somewhere in the Birmingham area, South West sleeper splits, some tacked onto a revised Lowland sleeper, some carry on down to London. Perhaps route the Lowland from Birmingham via Derby Sheffield and ECML, with the Highland sticking to its current WCML route. With say a 10pm departure and a 7am arrival at the ends you have 9 hours to complete the journey and do any shunting. London departure carries both SW and Lowland etc.

This seems to be how a lot of European sleepers work, with trains reformed during the night with coaches from various destinations being shunted to give the range of services, with sometimes just one sleeper and maybe one seated car for a particular destination and even examples of trains made up from multiple different national operators.

Would SW sleeper passengers care that are going the long way around. It could give more journey options.

You would need a uniform fleet of accommodation that can be hauled by electric and diesel. We don't have that.

 

[mike57]

You would need a uniform fleet of accommodation that can be hauled by electric and diesel.

No but we should, really procurement of lots of incompatible units is short sighted, if conditions change you cannot shuffle stock around, this issue spreads beyond sleeper services. Rolling stock has a potential 40 year life, buying lots of microfleets makes no sense. Off topic the TPE Mk5s are apparently unpowered MUs, so cannot be easily reformed even with in their own 'type'.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Caledonian misses Manchester and Birmingham - would stopping at either be doable?

Birmingham is I believe under active consideration. Manchester would be difficult due to platform lengths, though easier than it was because of the line to Preston being wired and would be at a very antisocial hour.

Calling times at both Birmingham and Manchester would in some cases be very antisocial: When running via the West Midlands the northbound Glasgow/Edinburgh train passes Stechford (5 minutes from New Street) at 0153, the southbound at 0506, and times at Manchester would be even worse! The Inverness timings would be more reasonable, but is there really sufficient spare capacity on the trains to accommodate the additional passengers?

 

[Lost property]

The Caledonian misses Manchester and Birmingham - would stopping at either be doable? Seems odd to me they're missed, you wouldn't have ÖBB bypassing the 2nd and 3rd largest metro areas of a country.

And therein lies a problem.

I've travelled on the Caledonian sleeper, once, and that was in the 70's plus the Gov't was paying boarding at Crewe. For people living in either of the above locations, the problems begin with getting to either Crewe, or Preston, at a relatively anti-social time. The sleeper service is fine, if, you are going from terminus to terminus, but not if you wish to board en-route.

The service also has to appeal to your specific needs. I like train travel hence when I got my Senior Railcard, I use it extensively such as the "round robin".. Stafford / Crewe-Glasgow-Inverness (night stop) then Inverness-Aberdeen-Kings X-Euston-Stafford for example because I like the scenery. There's also another, for me, disadvantage...sharing accom. Fine, sometimes, in the mil, but not as a civilian with a complete stranger.

There's obviously a market for the remaining UK sleeper trains, in part practical, in another a romanticised journey, but how long for ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Calling times at both Birmingham and Manchester would in some cases be very antisocial: When running via the West Midlands the northbound Glasgow/Edinburgh train passes Stechford (5 minutes from New Street) at 0153, the southbound at 0506, and times at Manchester would be even worse! The Inverness timings would be more reasonable, but is there really sufficient spare capacity on the trains to accommodate the additional passengers?

It's the Highlander that is proposed to serve Birmingham. It's been discussed at a high enough level that I'm sure I recall a posting containing a bit of a veiled hint saying something like "look at Realtime Trains once it starts showing times for the May timetable and you might see it".

 

[Falcon1200]

Thanks @Bletchleyite. If CS are seriously considering the extra stop they clearly believe it is worthwhile and achievable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Calling times at both Birmingham and Manchester would in some cases be very antisocial: When running via the West Midlands the northbound Glasgow/Edinburgh train passes Stechford (5 minutes from New Street) at 0153, the southbound at 0506, and times at Manchester would be even worse! The Inverness timings would be more reasonable, but is there really sufficient spare capacity on the trains to accommodate the additional passengers?

at a guess Birmingham would replace the Crewe call.

 

[The Ham]

Given that Scotland to SW (pre Covid) was circa 85,000 and mid 90's it was about 185,000, the sleepers probably carried 100,000 a year.

Over a 7 day a week service, at best that's 140 passengers each way on average, and so hardly the sorts of numbers which make for a viable service.

What may change in the future is pairing if HS2 service with the sleeper to/from Cornwall.

Currently the last service from Edinburgh to Penzance (not using the sleeper) is at 13:30 and arrives at 00:35. With HS2 this shifts to being able to leave Edinburgh between 15:00 and 16:00 and changing at Old Oak Common (3 hour journey time), this makes taking a half day more viable and so being able to get to Cornwall to then go to sleep in an actual bed.

Using the sleeper you can leave Edinburgh at 17:30 and arrive in Penzance at 7:54. With HS2 services taking 3 hours to Old Oak Common (change to get to Paddington) with the sleeper boarding from 22:30 it should be possible to leave Edinburgh between 18:30 and 19:30 (depending on the timings) and still catch the sleeper, which would make it possible for more to do a full days work and still arrive in Cornwall the following morning.

As such it reduces the viability of a SW/Scotland sleeper further.

Especially given that according to the timetables posted here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-to-their-current-scope.215137/#post-5038938

The old sleeper left Penzance at 1650 and arrived in Edinburgh at 8:15, assuming similar timings for the southbound journey not too different from using HS2 and the sleeper.

Whilst going the other way would be slower, as the sleeper arrives a little after 5:00, so even the earliest HS2 service (assuming a 5:30 to 6:30 departure time) would be arriving 8:30 to 9:30, so at worst 45 minutes later than the old sleeper but with a much later departure from Penzance (21:45).

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that Scotland to SW (pre Covid) was circa 85,000 and mid 90's it was about 185,000, the sleepers probably carried 100,000 a year.

Over a 7 day a week service, at best that's 140 passengers each way on average

I think that’s rather optimistic. From memory they rarely carried more than a couple of dozen passengers a night (in the beds), and that was when the Navy were sending staff on them from Devonport to Faslane etc. @paul1609 will know better than I do.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Overnight travel is a fairly niche market, as shown by the fact there aren't a lot of options to do it. Moreover, you need to be going long distance to make it viable. There is an 'overnight' train from London to Leeds, leaving London at 2330 and arriving in Leeds at 0230. Similarly, from Newcastle at 0440, arriving in London at 0809 and indeed from Newcastle at 0426 to Liverpool for 0801. Our journey times by rail are just too short. Travel on these services is only really viable if you have a home to finish or start at.

Perhaps something like Manchester (go via York from Piccadilly to avoid the Castlefield Corridor) to Aberdeen and Inverness would be a long enough distance to work as a sleeper? How about Manchester to Plymouth/Penzance like the Night Riviera, but from Manchester and Birmingham instead of London. Maybe a CrossCountry sleeper such as Swansea & Cardiff to Newcastle & Edinburgh, possibly with a join at Bristol with carriages from Plymouth & Exeter? How about Manchester to Southampton & Portsmouth?

 

[irish_rail]

Given that Scotland to SW (pre Covid) was circa 85,000 and mid 90's it was about 185,000, the sleepers probably carried 100,000 a year.

Over a 7 day a week service, at best that's 140 passengers each way on average, and so hardly the sorts of numbers which make for a viable service.

What may change in the future is pairing if HS2 service with the sleeper to/from Cornwall.

Currently the last service from Edinburgh to Penzance (not using the sleeper) is at 13:30 and arrives at 00:35. With HS2 this shifts to being able to leave Edinburgh between 15:00 and 16:00 and changing at Old Oak Common (3 hour journey time), this makes taking a half day more viable and so being able to get to Cornwall to then go to sleep in an actual bed.

Using the sleeper you can leave Edinburgh at 17:30 and arrive in Penzance at 7:54. With HS2 services taking 3 hours to Old Oak Common (change to get to Paddington) with the sleeper boarding from 22:30 it should be possible to leave Edinburgh between 18:30 and 19:30 (depending on the timings) and still catch the sleeper, which would make it possible for more to do a full days work and still arrive in Cornwall the following morning.

As such it reduces the viability of a SW/Scotland sleeper further.

Especially given that according to the timetables posted here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-to-their-current-scope.215137/#post-5038938

The old sleeper left Penzance at 1650 and arrived in Edinburgh at 8:15, assuming similar timings for the southbound journey not too different from using HS2 and the sleeper.

Whilst going the other way would be slower, as the sleeper arrives a little after 5:00, so even the earliest HS2 service (assuming a 5:30 to 6:30 departure time) would be arriving 8:30 to 9:30, so at worst 45 minutes later than the old sleeper but with a much later departure from Penzance (21:45).

Slightly off topic perhaps, but if only the Scotland to South west daytime trains went via the WCML and not the ECML the journey times could be significantly improved and do away with any need for Anglo Scottish sleepers and probably dent the SW to Scotland Air Market, which, sadly is the way most people travel between the two areas owing to the slow train service and high ticket prices.

 

[lachlan]

And therein lies a problem.

I've travelled on the Caledonian sleeper, once, and that was in the 70's plus the Gov't was paying boarding at Crewe. For people living in either of the above locations, the problems begin with getting to either Crewe, or Preston, at a relatively anti-social time. The sleeper service is fine, if, you are going from terminus to terminus, but not if you wish to board en-route.

The service also has to appeal to your specific needs. I like train travel hence when I got my Senior Railcard, I use it extensively such as the "round robin".. Stafford / Crewe-Glasgow-Inverness (night stop) then Inverness-Aberdeen-Kings X-Euston-Stafford for example because I like the scenery. There's also another, for me, disadvantage...sharing accom. Fine, sometimes, in the mil, but not as a civilian with a complete stranger.

There's obviously a market for the remaining UK sleeper trains, in part practical, in another a romanticised journey, but how long for ?

You're no longer able to share with a stranger on the Caledonian Sleeper

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly off topic perhaps, but if only the Scotland to South west daytime trains went via the WCML and not the ECML the journey times could be significantly improved and do away with any need for Anglo Scottish sleepers and probably dent the SW to Scotland Air Market, which, sadly is the way most people travel between the two areas owing to the slow train service and high ticket prices.

It might dent the market, but it would be a small dent in a small market. The entire Central Belt to South West air market would fit on two double Voyagers each way a day.

 

[irish_rail]

It might dent the market, but it would be a small dent in a small market. The entire Central Belt to South West air market would fit on two double Voyagers each way a day.

Yes and that's partly my point. An improved offer would tempt an increase in travel. At present, a holiday in the Scottish Highlands from Plymouth seems difficult unless prepared to fly. Similarly for Scots who may want a bit of Devon / Cornish sun they are no doubt deterred from making such a trip as many people do not want the hassle of flying, and look at the long journey time on XC and associated high cost.