Sleeper Network Growth

[The Prisoner]

Europe is seeing growth in the number of sleeper routes being offered as customers look for environmental alternatives to air travel and a different experience to the budget airlines.

A new Berlin to Brussels sleeper starts in May, with Stockholm to Hamburg, Amsterdam to Zurich, Brussels to Prague and Paris to the Mediterranean all mentioned in this article https://www.forbes.com/sites/everettpotter/2022/09/12/4-new-european-sleeper-trains/

The UK had an extensive overnight network. What chance of any of that returning?

My thoughts in particular were Scotland via the Midlands to the South West, maybe something from South Wales to Scotland and a service along either the ECML or Midland Main Line to Scotland to serve the East Midlands and Yorkshire with an overnight option (starting at London).

I'm not suggesting replicating the Caledonian Sleepers - thinking something more affordable and with budget accommodation with Megabus/Flixbus like seating and pricing for those who want to sit and smaller single rooms for those who want to sleep.

I'm certain there would be a market for it, perhaps with a new overnight open access operator utilising limited stock to serve different routes each night (I doubt you could sustain running six nights a week on a new route from scratch).

The golden bullet would be a UK - mainland Europe overnight service. I know Midnight trains are talking about an Edinburgh to Paris overnight service, but not sure that will ever get off the ground? A domestic network seems realistic though.

 

[JonathanH]

The UK had an extensive overnight network. What chance of any of that returning?

Zero chance. It was only ever remotely viable when its costs were shared with overnight parcels.

When the Caledonian Sleeper costs £100 per passenger in subsidy, and the seated accommodation isn't in any way conducive to sleeping, that isn't a good start.

I'm not suggesting replicating the Caledonian Sleepers - thinking something more affordable and with budget accommodation with Megabus/Flixbus like seating and pricing for those who want to sit and smaller single rooms for those who want to sleep.

Offering 'budget accommodation' doesn't sound like it would cover its costs. The costs would be higher than a day train because the demand would be less. Even what you envisage requires bespoke stock which wouldn't be much use as a day train, and overnight trains in this country seem to have to have the lights on.

A coach is a better way to provide overnight travel at a budget cost, with the lights off, and at reasonable overnight journey times.

I'm certain there would be a market for it, perhaps with a new overnight open access operator utilising limited stock to serve different routes each night (I doubt you could sustain running six nights a week on a new route from scratch).

I doubt it. How much overnight travel demand is there? Possibly to airports, but not much else.

Overnight travel is a fairly niche market, as shown by the fact there aren't a lot of options to do it. Moreover, you need to be going long distance to make it viable. There is an 'overnight' train from London to Leeds, leaving London at 2330 and arriving in Leeds at 0230. Similarly, from Newcastle at 0440, arriving in London at 0809 and indeed from Newcastle at 0426 to Liverpool for 0801. Our journey times by rail are just too short. Travel on these services is only really viable if you have a home to finish or start at.

Don't get me wrong, overnight travel is a way of saving hotel costs and not wasting time travelling, but it is best left to what coach operators can provide on a commercial basis.

The golden bullet would be a UK - mainland Europe overnight service. I know Midnight trains are talking about an Edinburgh to Paris overnight service, but not sure that will ever get off the ground?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...indicates-uk-route.218724/page-3#post-5191200

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-there-demand-for-more-sleeper-services.207183/

 

[Hadders]

Absolutely no chance in my opinion. Running sleeper trains is very expensive and the fares are not going to cover the cost of leasing the dedicated stock (that will only make one journey a day), staffing costs and running the service.

Caledonian Sleeper and the Night Riviera make huge losses.

 

[Mikey C]

Sleeper trains to me are an enjoyable experience on holiday, but I wouldn't want to use them on a regular basis, say for work purposes, as I don't sleep very well on them.

 

[Bald Rick]

As per previous threads - the market isn’t big enough, and what market there is can’t sustain the price levels needed to pay for the specialist trains and significant extra operating costs involved in running a sleeper.

Related to this, if there was a market big enough for a seats only overnight service, then that would be running now using day stock. There isn’t, and therefore it isn’t.

 

[Sm5]

how is Europe expanding its sleeper network ?

What are they doing to make it viable that we fail on ?

 

[Clayton]

how is Europe expanding its sleeper network ?

What are they doing to make it viable that we fail on ?

Europe offers longer journeys and more sources of passengers. Personally I don’t fancy the idea of a sleeper unless it was very luxurious. I can’t see how you’d regulate the temperature and fresh air enough to sleep, apart from the train noise.

 

[Bald Rick]

how is Europe expanding its sleeper network ?

What are they doing to make it viable that we fail on ?

For example:

Bigger trains - making it viable to have couchettes and 3 high bunks, ie more people per ‘bed carriage’
Lots more seating carriages per train (which bring in more revenue than beds)
Longer distances, with more significant centres of population, and intermediate flows, to generate the traffic
Lower cost of operation (not least, lower paid on train staff)
Locos that will do other work in the day. (And this may apply to some of the seated stock in some cases)

 

[Mikey C]

Hadn't most European countries CUT sleeper services in the previous 20 years anyway, as high speed rail reduced their attractiveness AND modern open saloon carriages not convertible to couchettes like the old compartments?

Our sleeper services have, for political reasons, been unchanged for a long time.

 

[irish_rail]

Absolutely no chance in my opinion. Running sleeper trains is very expensive and the fares are not going to cover the cost of leasing the dedicated stock (that will only make one journey a day), staffing costs and running the service.

Caledonian Sleeper and the Night Riviera make huge losses.

Does the Riviera make a HUGE loss? I'm not so sure. I accept it probably makes a small loss but adds value to the economy and allows business in London early from the south west. Due to being staffed by GWR it saves money compared with the Scottish one which has its own drivers etc plus all the splitting and joining.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does the Riviera make a HUGE loss?

Depends on what you call huge. But it is a big number for two trains a day.

 

[irish_rail]

Depends on what you call huge. But it is a big number for two trains a day.

Question is does the increased tourism (even enthusiasts coming and visiting Cornwall etc ) outweigh the relatively small losses? Also I bet business leaders in the south west would argue a small loss is most definitely outweighed by gains in visitor numbers .

 

[gingerheid]

I could see European Sleepers being viable if we were a fully signed up members of Schengen.

That being impossible my vision of the future is a bit different; rather than any growth I'd say that when HS2 opens the lowland sleepers will die:
a) Saying that faster daytime journeys mean they are no longer needed will be a convenient excuse to save some £
b) The above may also likely even be true in any case

 

[Bletchleyite]

That being impossible my vision of the future is a bit different; rather than any growth I'd say that when HS2 opens the lowland sleepers will die:

That's my inclination. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Night Riviera was to disappear in May (given that cuts seem to be on the horizon), or become some sort of summer only/weekend only operation using only one set of coaches to save money. Or that total withdrawal will be proposed but the Government will concede to a limited operation like that, or even just a 5-car 80x doing it instead of the sleeper coaches.

 

[popeter45]

I could see European Sleepers being viable if we were a fully signed up members of Schengen.

That being impossible my vision of the future is a bit different; rather than any growth I'd say that when HS2 opens the lowland sleepers will die:
a) Saying that faster daytime journeys mean they are no longer needed will be a convenient excuse to save some £
b) The above may also likely even be true in any case

I really hope the lowlander doesn't go post HS2

most times im in Glasgow I'm not heading back to London till 9-10PM and even HS2 wouldn't run trains that late departing

 

[Bald Rick]

Question is does the increased tourism (even enthusiasts coming and visiting Cornwall etc ) outweigh the relatively small losses?

Nobody said the losses were relatively small. They are on a par with CS on a normalised basis.

It would be interesting to know how many people would not travel to Cornwall if the sleeper stopped. I suspect most of those affected would simply swap to day trains or other transport.

 

[Falcon1200]

Question is does the increased tourism (even enthusiasts coming and visiting Cornwall etc ) outweigh the relatively small losses? Also I bet business leaders in the south west would argue a small loss is most definitely outweighed by gains in visitor numbers .

It might do, but apart from the train fares paid, the revenue from increased tourism and visitor numbers will go to local businesses, not the railway! Which then raises the question.... who should subsidise such an operation?

 

[Bald Rick]

It might do, but apart from the train fares paid, the revenue from increased tourism and visitor numbers will go to local businesses, not the railway! Which then raises the question.... who should subsidise such an operation?

Indeed. One wonders if central Government devolved the subsidy of the WoE Sleeper to Cornwall and said “up to you what you do with the money”, whether the Cornish authorities would retain the train, or spend the money on something else. This won’t be happening of course!

 

[Western Lord]

Question is does the increased tourism (even enthusiasts coming and visiting Cornwall etc ) outweigh the relatively small losses? Also I bet business leaders in the south west would argue a small loss is most definitely outweighed by gains in visitor numbers .

The number of visitors arriving in Cornwall on the sleeper is absolutely tiny. The vast majority of visitors to Cornwall arrive on the A30.

 

[stuu]

Question is does the increased tourism (even enthusiasts coming and visiting Cornwall etc ) outweigh the relatively small losses? Also I bet business leaders in the south west would argue a small loss is most definitely outweighed by gains in visitor numbers .

Increased tourism? It moves about 1200 people per week, which is about 1% of the total number of annual visitors to Cornwall. There might be a case if all of those visitors are high spenders and would definitely go somewhere else, but as a contribution to tourism it's a rounding error at best.

 

[irish_rail]

Increased tourism? It moves about 1200 people per week, which is about 1% of the total number of annual visitors to Cornwall. There might be a case if all of those visitors are high spenders and would definitely go somewhere else, but as a contribution to tourism it's a rounding error at best.

1 percent of Cornwall annual visitors? If so that's quite a lot of money! But its not just tourism, but connectivity as well and so called levelling up. People often forget Cornwall is one of the poorest parts of the "old EU". Hence why any decision to axe the sleepers becomes much harder. 600k people who live in Cornwall, thats the size of a large city , and outside of the trendy resorts, there isn't alot of wealth. Certainly wouldn't look good . But then as geographically it is in the south it may be considered fair game if it means a project up north can remain.

 

[lachlan]

The number of visitors arriving in Cornwall on the sleeper is absolutely tiny. The vast majority of visitors to Cornwall arrive on the A30.

Indeed which is why rail provision (day and night) should be retained and improved to reduce the numbers going by road.

 

[Western Lord]

Indeed which is why rail provision (day and night) should be retained and improved to reduce the numbers going by road.

If even 5% of visitors to Cornwall by road tried to switch to rail, the trains would be swamped. There is no conceivable rail service that could begin to cope with Cornwall's tourist numbers, not least because trains do not go to many of the places that tourists do. Cornwall's economy absolutely depends on the private car, which is why millions continues to be spent on improving the A30 (Carland Cross - Chiverton Cross dual carriageway coming soon).

 

[tbtc]

People often forget Cornwall is one of the poorest parts of the "old EU". Hence why any decision to axe the sleepers becomes much harder. 600k people who live in Cornwall, thats the size of a large city , and outside of the trendy resorts, there isn't alot of wealth

…But the proper using the heavily subsidised Sleeper aren’t horny handed sons of toil, they are more likely to be wealthy people from London/ Home Counties travelling to their second homes

I’m all for spending money on struggling areas (South Yorkshire had a lot of EU money too, for similar reasons), but a Sleeper service isn’t the tool I’d choose

 

[irish_rail]

If even 5% of visitors to Cornwall by road tried to switch to rail, the trains would be swamped. There is no conceivable rail service that could begin to cope with Cornwall's tourist numbers, not least because trains do not go to many of the places that tourists do. Cornwall's economy absolutely depends on the private car, which is why millions continues to be spent on improving the A30 (Carland Cross - Chiverton Cross dual carriageway coming soon).

By this argument why doesn't rail just give up. How about implement Serpell and cut the network back to Plymouth. As Lachlan says, we need to be encouraging more people onto rail to the south west, not fewer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==

…But the proper using the heavily subsidised Sleeper aren’t horny handed sons of toil, they are more likely to be wealthy people from London/ Home Counties travelling to their second homes

I’m all for spending money on struggling areas (South Yorkshire had a lot of EU money too, for similar reasons), but a Sleeper service isn’t the tool I’d choose

Yes and those wealthy incomers bring lots of money into the county. Cornwall needs tourism to survive. It has little else.

 

[A S Leib]

most times im in Glasgow I'm not heading back to London till 9-10PM and even HS2 wouldn't run trains that late departing

The last London - Newcastle train now leaves at 22:00 and takes 03:53; HS2's journey time calculator gives 03:40 for London to Glasgow so I don't think last trains between London and the Central Belt leaving at 21:00 or later's massively unrealistic, especially if passenger numbers have rebounded by the time it's open.

 

[Western Lord]

By this argument why doesn't rail just give up. How about implement Serpell and cut the network back to Plymouth. As Lachlan says, we need to be encouraging more people onto rail to the south west, not fewer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2023 ==


Yes and those wealthy incomers bring lots of money into the county. Cornwall needs tourism to survive. It has little else.

How are you going to accommodate more people on rail (with all their luggage)? Four tracks to Penzance, trains every ten minutes?
Cornwall knows it needs tourism which is why the road network is being improved. I am not advocating cutting the rail network in Cornwall nor reducing services, but people should be realistic about the role that rail plays in bringing tourists into Cornwall, or can ever play.

 

[irish_rail]

How are you going to accommodate more people on rail (with all their luggage)? Four tracks to Penzance, trains every ten minutes?
Cornwall knows it needs tourism which is why the road network is being improved. I am not advocating cutting the rail network in Cornwall nor reducing services, but people should be realistic about the role that rail plays in bringing tourists into Cornwall, or can ever play.

Well axing the sleeper certainly isn't going to accommodate more people on rail to Cornwall. New sidings at Long Rock will allow more 9 and 10 car trains into Cornwall and that will help a little and other options include extending some of the Plymouth terminators into Cornwall, plus improving the spread over the day of footfall persuading more to travel outside of the 1004 to 1504 (ex London) peak. Small gains are better than no gains or indeed reverse gains.

 

[LLivery]

The Caledonian misses Manchester and Birmingham - would stopping at either be doable? Seems odd to me they're missed, you wouldn't have ÖBB bypassing the 2nd and 3rd largest metro areas of a country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Caledonian misses Manchester and Birmingham - would stopping at either be doable? Seems odd to me they're missed, you wouldn't have ÖBB bypassing the 2nd and 3rd largest metro areas of a country.

Birmingham is I believe under active consideration. Manchester would be difficult due to platform lengths, though easier than it was because of the line to Preston being wired and would be at a very antisocial hour.