Skoda Exportation

[Crossforth]

I read on another forum that some DBS class 90s are going to be exported to Holland, how much truth is there in this?

 

[captainbigun]

Try Romania and you'll be nearer the mark.

 

[Crossforth]

I'm only going by what I read elsewhere

 

[captainbigun]

Understand that

DBS are looking at export around 10 examples to Romania.

 

[Crossforth]

So there are plenty of MK2s lying about and what now seems to be several class 90s lying about and we have stock shortages yet we're flogging them abroad?

Something wrong I think

 

[MCR247]

So there are plenty of MK2s lying about and what now seems to be several class 90s lying about and we have stock shortages yet we're flogging them abroad?

Something wrong I think

Where would you use them? Tell me, I'm intrigued...

We are short of DMUs, places with EMUs are normally important enough to have enough stock...

 

[Crossforth]

Fair point, I can't think of many.

May only free up one possibly two units this but...:

use the 90+stock on an LM 350 service, shift the 350 to the Lymington branch and move the 158/159 elsewhere say to Northern

I am sure there are plenty of others, we just can't think of them

 

[MCR247]

Fair point, I can't think of many.

May only free up one possibly two units this but...:

use the 90+stock on an LM 350 service, shift the 350 to the Lymington branch and move the 158/159 elsewhere say to Northern

I am sure there are plenty of others, we just can't think of them

So people get a slower journey time on a LM service for the unit that is saved to be put on a route that will be mostly empty for the day?!

Makes sense

 

[Dave R]

90s + coaching stock

New St - Edinburgh/Glasgow
East coast HSTs on Leeds diagrams

 

[Crossforth]

I knew there was somewhere obvious I was missing

And I don't think many people would mind having a slightly longer journey if they got to sit down, which quite often does not happen during peak our on TPE services, the amount of times I have had to stand all the way to Manchester from Leeds because we are packed in like sardines

 

[MCR247]

90s + coaching stock

New St - Edinburgh/Glasgow - Good Idea, but could they keep to timings?
East coast HSTs on Leeds diagrams - I doubt they'd keep to timings, and I think the HSTs that are on Leeds runs are required for positioning like Aberdeen HST and extended runs from Skipton etc

I think

 

[tbtc]

90s + coaching stock

New St - Edinburgh/Glasgow
East coast HSTs on Leeds diagrams

I don't think they could keep to the timings, could they?

 

[Crossforth]

I know that blunt end 91s can keep the timings on the Leeds service, certainly by destination at least, and they are limited to 110mph

not so sure about timings on the WCML though although if it frees up abit of stock to give capacity elsewhere...

 

[tbtc]

I knew there was somewhere obvious I was missing

And I don't think many people would mind having a slightly longer journey if they got to sit down, which quite often does not happen during peak our on TPE services, the amount of times I have had to stand all the way to Manchester from Leeds because we are packed in like sardines

That may be true, but you'd need to recast timetables to fit these slower service in. 90s can't match 125mph timings, so they'd run the risk of getting caught by the service behind them, potentially not get sufficient run around time etc etc.

Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh should be run by electrics, and lines like Transpennine ought to be wired, but in the short term there are no easy ways round it

 

[Crossforth]

I just don't see the point of exporting stock when we seem to need it here, be that it slows a few journeys down, we do need the extra capacity

 

[tbtc]

I just don't see the point of exporting stock when we seem to need it here, be that it slows a few journeys down, we do need the extra capacity

We have no real use for the 90s right now.

We could recast the ECML/ WCML timetables to allow slower running, which would slow the 225s/ 390s (etc) down, cause connections to be missed, cause more 225s/ 390s (etc) to be needed to meet the same number of services, which is going to be pretty complicated to arrange for the sake of a handful of extra trains.

Also, bear in mind that the Mark Two coaches mentioned above as being "spare" are 100mph limited (?), and a step down from the standard of service people get on comparable ECML/ ECML services.

Nah, the 90s are of little use to us; I'd rather that they were being used in another country in active service

 

[MCR247]

I just don't see the point of exporting stock when we seem to need it here, be that it slows a few journeys down, we do need the extra capacity

Its not as simple 'slowing down' the train, there are a shortage of ECML paths and the bottleneck at Welwyn isn't going to help

 

[Crossforth]

Fair enough

Is there anywhere where I can get more details on the exportation?

 

[Intercity]

could they not be used on cambridge-kx non stops?

 

[mumrar]

You're forgetting to account for track access charges in your crystal ball lol. Class 90=40.74ppm, mk2 rake=5.96x9=53.64 so the total is 94.38ppm for a Class 90, 8 mk2s and a DVT. A 350 consists of 2 motor vehicles at 8.26ppm each and two trailer vehicles at 6.56ppm each. So an 8 coach Desiro costs 59.28ppm. For the just over that price you could run the Class 90 with 3 mk2s and a DVT, so it's not as clear cut as you're all making out.

 

[captainbigun]

If you were looking at the costs you'd also have to consider procurement/lease and maintenance costs as well as NR's bill for use of their electricity.

All academic as the only Mk2s left are those that are in use (ATW/Cargo-D etc) and all but a handful of DVTs are spoken for.

LHCS was looked at for the Cambridge and Peterborough fasts a couple of years back. Then the DfT stepped in.

As with the 87s, if they can see use abroad then that's the best place for them.

 

[mumrar]

What I posted was NRs track access charges, not the cost of the electric that they use, which is a seperate cost entirely. The track access charges represent costs of maintenance to do with each specific vehicle based on lots of different factors such as axle-weight. I made an assumption earlier that a DVT was included in the mk2 stock, it isn't and costs 10.6ppm, making the 8 coach loco hauled set quoted as costing 99.02ppm, or nearly £1 per mile!

 

[captainbigun]

I fully understand the track access regime. My point was that if you're looking at the operating costs of a certain vehicle/arrangement then you have to look whole piece from procurement through vehicle maintenance (as opposed to NR's maintenance covered under track access) and on to operation. Therefore just looking at the track access fees is only part of the story.

 

[LE Greys]

We have no real use for the 90s right now.

We could recast the ECML/ WCML timetables to allow slower running, which would slow the 225s/ 390s (etc) down, cause connections to be missed, cause more 225s/ 390s (etc) to be needed to meet the same number of services, which is going to be pretty complicated to arrange for the sake of a handful of extra trains.

Also, bear in mind that the Mark Two coaches mentioned above as being "spare" are 100mph limited (?), and a step down from the standard of service people get on comparable ECML/ ECML services.

Nah, the 90s are of little use to us; I'd rather that they were being used in another country in active service

They ran 90s with Mk IVs during the 'Delta 91' overhauls, and they could maintain a 225 schedule on Leeds semi-fasts. They did it by rapid acceleration out of stations, which more than made up the three seconds a mile they lost from reduced top speed. They've been seriously considered to take over the service permanently, but additional HSTs and a few Dellas have come in instead, since they have the advantage of being able to run away from the wires if need be.

 

[mumrar]

I know it's a bit pedantic, but the 110mph vs 125mph gives a difference of 3.93s for covering a mile. Without any further electrification taking place, it's surely better to sell them before they're rotten through from storage sooner rather than later.

 

[Flying Snail]

You're forgetting to account for track access charges in your crystal ball lol. Class 90=40.74ppm, mk2 rake=5.96x9=53.64 so the total is 94.38ppm for a Class 90, 8 mk2s and a DVT. A 350 consists of 2 motor vehicles at 8.26ppm each and two trailer vehicles at 6.56ppm each. So an 8 coach Desiro costs 59.28ppm. For the just over that price you could run the Class 90 with 3 mk2s and a DVT, so it's not as clear cut as you're all making out.

There is no good argument to be made for replacing 350s or other EMUs with 90+stock.

Replacing voyagers on Birmingham-Scotland and HSTs on KX-Leeds does have merit. It would release much needed quality diesel stock to cascade more appropriate and longer trains for routes that are currently poorly served (Liverpool-Norwich immediately comes to mind) as well as reduce the amount of un-necessary diesel-under-wire mileage.

As for track access charges: 5 car 221 is 60.5ppm, 10 car is 121ppm. 90+DVT+6 Mk3 is 90.5ppm
That would be 1/3 more than a single 221 but gives a much greater capacity.

The issue of pathing problems is also a red herring. Take away the Brum-Scotland 221 and there is only 1 125mph EPS train per hour north of Crewe so replacing a 221 with a hauled set is not going to create any significant timetabling problems, the majority of services on that section currently are 100mph or slower as it is.

On EC, 90+DVT is 51.34ppm while 2 HST powercars cost 56.36ppm and as previously mentioned a 90 set can keep to current timings on runs with multiple stops due to superior acceleration.

 

[Vulcan]

Never heard class 90s refered to as Skodas before, why is that?
I wish my skoda was a class 90 though, would be a lot more fun.

Also, why would a 91 running 'tender first' be any slower then one going pointing in the right direction? they spend half their time running backwards, and I really can't believe that the pointy end streamlining can offer that much aerodynamic advantage when you take into account the air resistance of the pantograph well and rooftop equipment, buffers, couplings, windscreen wipers, and suchlike.

 

[ainsworth74]

they spend half their time running backwards

But when they are going backwards the DVT leads and thats got a streamlined front so it never normally runs with a blunt end leading no matter which way the set is going.

and I really can't believe that the pointy end streamlining can offer that much aerodynamic advantage when you take into account the air resistance of the pantograph well and rooftop equipment, buffers, couplings, windscreen wipers, and suchlike.

I think you'd be suprised, have you ever stuck you hand out a car window* doing 40-50mph, if you have you hand flat to the oncoming wind the resitance is huge, tilt it and its much easier. That is for a hand doing 50mph, imagine a class 91 doing over 100mph. The panto well, wipers and such like won't offer that much resistance their surface area is tiny compared to the whole loco front being blunt. I did once know the equations relating to such things however that knowledge has unfortunantly left me :cry:

*By hand I mean hand only, when I've done it my hand never went further out than the wing mirror, I'm quite attached to it and would rather keep it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having done some very rough calculations I would guess that the blunt end offers 10 times the wind resitance than the streamlined end. Roughly. And by roughly I mean like sandpaper rough. I am sure someone who either knows or has a better understanding will be along shortly to shoot me down in flames

 

[455driver]

Don't forget about impact protection for the driver, if it is the blunt end then any impact (with a bird etc) will be square onto the glass, if its the angled end then the same thickness of glass will effectively be twice as thick and also only a glancing blow so therefore much less chance of "getting through" shall we say.
Hold a thick book up vertically and see how thick it is to a horizontal impact, then tilt it back and look at the relative thickness to that horizontal impact, this is also why tanks have angled armour not vertical or horizontal.

 

[Vulcan]

True words, but I can't believe it would make that much difference to a loco with over 6,000 horepower on tap.