Skipping stops to make up time

[455driver]

There must be some performance incentive for TOCs to do it, as I've seen some strange ones at times.

For example, a Charing Cross to Ramsgate via Ashford/Canterbury service, delayed by a few minutes leaving London with signal checks here and there, no more than 7 minutes late by Ashford, where it was announced the train would run non-stop from Canterbury West to Ramsgate. In the end the train got stuck behind something at Minster and virtually came to a stand in the platform anyway. The train wasn't booked a quick turnaround at Ramsgate, and the crew clearly weren't in any hurry to go anywhere upon arrival, and could be heard remarking between them how they "didn't see the point of that".

That happens quite often, sometimes the crews will suggest a solution(which would still save the time but would also shift some people) but will be over ruled by 'control' because they know best! :roll:

 

[cin88]

I've seen this happen quite a few times at Warrington C. Northern will turn a late running Liverpool-Manchester into an express to prevent the TPE & EM fasts from tripping over them.

It wouldn't surprise me if it happens more often than it did to me. There was many occassions where i'd got stuck for 15/20 minutes at the passing loop (or is it a siding) near Glazebrook/Birchwood (I think, route knowledge has deteriorated since I left uni). All because TPE had ended up late for whatever reason.

 

[button_boxer]

London Midland are always doing this on their Euston to Crewe service. If it is delayed by about 30 minutes then will it have it run non stop between Stafford and Crewe direct via the WCML rather then via Stoke. Train still ends up having quite a dwell time at Crewe before the return leg back to Euston so I think its to massage the stastics.

May be something to do with the single line section between Alsager and Crewe.

 

[hounddog]

I remember (some years ago) my regular train from Victoria to Streatham Hill was cancelled several days in a row and replaced by a 'special additional service' that followed the route of the cancelled service but left a couple of minutes later and missed out a couple of stops. Presumably that was some kind of performance measurement fiddle. I think it was in the days of Connex, so someone will no doubt be able to tell me just how long ago it was.

 

[dvboy]

LM will often skip stops on the Cross City Line if a train has a small delay. It allows it to make up time and not delay those behind, so quite often you'll see one announced as "Fast to Four Oaks" to catch up, and for intermediate stops, wait for the next one. If the delay is too big to recover time by doing this, they might terminate it at Birmingham New Street at the next opportunity and wait there for the return journey on the same diagram.

 

[splitfare]

On the LM services on the Birmingham - Shrewsbury route trains do stop short at either Wellington (on services to Shrewsbury) or Wolverhampton (on route to Birmingham) in order to get later services back on schedule.

Similarly late running trains on the ATW services from Holyhead to Birmingham International may be terminated at either Chester or Shrewsbury as a separate train will have been substituted at Chester/Shrewsbury to run the later parts of the service on time and allow the return service to operate to timetable.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

ATW will often do this on the Valleys services.

When a train is running late, they miss out the intermediate stations between Cardiff Queen Street and Radyr or Pontypridd and make announcements to that effect. You have to be aware of this, mind you, as the platform announcements aren't often too loud, and if you're on the train, you can't always hear them if they're not repeated on the train.

I'm not sure how late a train has to be for this to happen, but if I see that the one I want is running quite late (say 20 / 30 minutes) and everything else is also delayed, I'm pretty wary of getting on, as my stop (Cathays) will be omitted.

I've been caught once or twice ... but hopefully no more! (Fingers Crossed!)

 

[PHILIPE]

On the LM services on the Birmingham - Shrewsbury route trains do stop short at either Wellington (on services to Shrewsbury) or Wolverhampton (on route to Birmingham) in order to get later services back on schedule.

Similarly late running trains on the ATW services from Holyhead to Birmingham International may be terminated at either Chester or Shrewsbury as a separate train will have been substituted at Chester/Shrewsbury to run the later parts of the service on time and allow the return service to operate to timetable.

This regularly happens on the Marches route if a train from Manchester to West Wales or vice versa has been delayed, ATW will start a fresh train from Cardiff in it's path.

 

[joke2711]

Merseyrails finest example of this was during the Open Golf championship on the Sunday Evening when they had a failure on one of the first trains to leave Hoylake after the Golf had finished. Once the delay had been cleared they took all trains out of Service at Lime Street and ran them non-stop to Hoylake empty. At Lime Street I was one of a number of others wanting to go to Hoylake and they wouldn't let us board. This happened for 7 consecutive trains albeit a 10 min service ...

 

[Bald Rick]

Although that train will fail PPM, the trains for the rest of the day won't, so it is a way of massaging performance figures.

Of course it is desirable to have the train depart its next journey on time, and I wouldn't criticise them for doing it, but lets not pretend any TOC that does it is being purely altruistic.

Sorry that's not 'massaging the figures', which implies some underhand method of portraying false information. Indeed for that particular train it makes the figures worse as it gets delayed AND counts as a cancellation. This causes extra penalty payments.

The TOCs do it, as you suggest , to restore services to right time. This is so that disruption is caused to the fewest number of passengers as is possible.

Let's say that trains didn't skip stops and thus ran late for the rest of the day; then hundreds, potentially thousands of passengers would have their journeys delayed. And those late trains could in turn delay other trains. Skipping stops is not a new concept, BR used to do it as well.

The fact that by causing trains to run on time reduces penalties to the operators surely demonstrates that the incentive regime works correctly in this respect.

 

[Stampy]

I know the the train I was planning to catch, the 1736 from Matlock was CANCELLED last Saturday.

It was in fact turned around at Ambergate, running 25 minutes late...

Didn't help that all it showed at Matlock was that the train was DELAYED..

Had to catch the 1836 instead and travel home via Nottingham!!

 

[FOH]

Southern are masters of the art of skipping stops on the Metro routes from London Bridge.

 

[Taunton]

Sorry that's not 'massaging the figures', which implies some underhand method of portraying false information. Indeed for that particular train it makes the figures worse as it gets delayed AND counts as a cancellation.

Not necessarily, because are there not separate PPM targets for delays and for cancellations. It may be they are getting close to the limit for delays but have some headroom on the cancellations. So changing a potential delay to a cancellation still slots in alright for both figures.

Let's say that trains didn't skip stops and thus ran late for the rest of the day; then hundreds, potentially thousands of passengers would have their journeys delayed.

That's only if no further action is taken, and trains are scheduled to shuttle back and forth without any provision for overcoming any delay (sounds familiar). Back in the "Bad Old BR days", for example, the Edinburgh-Glasgow express service was every half hour, 45 minutes each way and 15 minutes turnround. This appeared to require 4 trains. but there were 5, because the fifth was kept up at Cowlairs, crewed, and could be (and was) substituted down for a departure when an inbound was delayed. So there are ways to run an intensive service with just the right level of backup against delays. It's just nobody any longer is able to think of them.

Gerry Fiennes had (as ever) the right attitude. You can read it in his book. An issue was that a semi-fast was regularly delayed and holding up a fast express due in just behind it. The team proposed to retime the express with more recovery time and a later arrival. He said the solution was not to retime the express but just to make damned sure the semi-fast ran to time in the first place. End.

 

[Parallel]

In my neck of the woods, the Cardiff - Portsmouth services start/terminate early at Newport if there is a delay at the end of that line. Trains more frequently run through to Portsmouth despite a delay as the train arrives and departs from platform 1, whereas in Cardiff they arrive at platform 4 and leave from platform 2. If the service is severely delayed, FGW/GWR will just cap the service at Bristol Temple Meads heading northbound or Fareham/Fratton southbound. If the service is still late, the calls at Bradford On Avon, Trowbridge and Warminster usually get cancelled.

The "local" Great Malvern services via. Bristol terminate early at Worcester Shrub Hill very frequently, probably an average of something like one a day! Presumably Worcester Foregate Street is a bit of a bottleneck and although there is 20 minutes turnaround time at Great Malvern, there is normally a service not far behind.

On the Gloucester - Weymouth leg, Filton Abbey Wood, Stapleton Road and Lawrence Hill usually get omitted before Bristol, and if there's still a significant delay then next go Keynsham and Oldfield Park, then Freshford and Avoncliff, and then Bradford On Avon and Trowbridge. This is to make up time as a lot of the line from Castle Cary - Upwey is single track and delays snowball. Also, HSTs share the track between Westbury and Castle Cary (not the Frome loop though) and I imagine they don't want an 8 car train getting stuck behind a 150 stopping at Bruton. Sometimes if they have a spare set available, the booked through service from Great Malvern/Gloucester will be capped at Bristol Temple Meads with a replacement set running on time from Temple Meads to Weymouth. Really not ideal if you were travelling from, say Gloucester to Yeovil!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not necessarily, because are there not separate PPM targets for delays and for cancellations. It may be they are getting close to the limit for delays but have some headroom on the cancellations. So changing a potential delay to a cancellation still slots in alright for both figures.


That's only if no further action is taken, and trains are scheduled to shuttle back and forth without any provision for overcoming any delay (sounds familiar). Back in the "Bad Old BR days", for example, the Edinburgh-Glasgow express service was every half hour, 45 minutes each way and 15 minutes turnround. This appeared to require 4 trains. but there were 5, because the fifth was kept up at Cowlairs, crewed, and could be (and was) substituted down for a departure when an inbound was delayed. So there are ways to run an intensive service with just the right level of backup against delays. It's just nobody any longer is able to think of them.

Gerry Fiennes had (as ever) the right attitude. You can read it in his book. An issue was that a semi-fast was regularly delayed and holding up a fast express due in just behind it. The team proposed to retime the express with more recovery time and a later arrival. He said the solution was not to retime the express but just to make damned sure the semi-fast ran to time in the first place. End.

That's not how it works.

There are indeed separate targets for delays and cancellations, set by the ORR. However those targets are just that. Very few operators have any financial incentive on PPM or delays with the DfT, and nothing with the ORR. For most TOCs the only incentivised element of performance with the DfT is self caused cancellations, which gives TOCs an incentive not to cancel trains at times of disruption. And there have been numerous examples of that happening, when a TOC close to its cancellation threshold will run trains around over an hour late on a 10/15 minute frequency service.

However within the track access contracts between NR and TOCs, cancellations and delays are both incentivised. But there are no targets or limits. Every single delay or cancellation has a financial value attached to it, with the money flowing away from whoever 'caused' the incident.

Most people who run the railway operation know how to run the railway with the right level of back up. But no one wants to pay for it.

I have read Fiennes' book, several times.

 

[PHILIPE]

I recall a few years ago when a terminating Cheltenham train and booked to return ECS to Gloucester ran empty from Gloucester to Cheltenham as cancelling it would have incurred a penalty.

 

[47271]

This happens a lot on the Edinburgh-Glasgow main line.

A few years ago I was on a late running morning train leaving Waverley. In my newspaper that dat was the original announcement of the full blown EGIP scheme, £2bn or whatever it was. This would reduce end to end journey times to 37 minutes it said.

Just at that moment, and as we pulled into Haymarket, they announced that we would run non stop to Queen Street to make up for the delay.

We arrived at Queen Street 37 minutes later. Genius, £2bn saved at a stroke.

 

[70014IronDuke]

That's not just skipping a stop; that's a re-routeing. I've known numerous occasions of this, such as XC omitting Leeds. It can save a potentially hefty delay if there is a problem on the usual route.

Call it what you like - it's the same difference to passengers - some get home later still, others not so late.

But both examples here seem eminently sensible to me. EMT passengers to and from Sheffield will be inconvenienced, but there is sure to be a service from Chesterfield within 10 mins or so on average, and the EMT train can make up significant time. Similarly re Leeds on the XC route.

re EMT - do they do this in both directions, ie if a Liverpool - Norwich train is running late on the Hope Valley, is it liable to omit Sheffield?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Southern are masters of the art of skipping stops on the Metro routes from London Bridge.

During severe delays, a stopper I boarded turned into a fast one night, running non-stop from Victoria to London Bridge. I walked down the train to find I was the only passenger on board!

 

[Taunton]

This happens a lot on the Edinburgh-Glasgow main line.

A few years ago I was on a late running morning train leaving Waverley. In my newspaper that day was the original announcement of the full blown EGIP scheme, £2bn or whatever it was. This would reduce end to end journey times to 37 minutes it said.

Just at that moment, and as we pulled into Haymarket, they announced that we would run non stop to Queen Street to make up for the delay.

We arrived at Queen Street 37 minutes later. Genius, £2bn saved at a stroke.

Actually the service introduced in May 1971 with two 1960s Class 27 locos and six Mk2 coaches had a timetabled nonstop time from Haymarket to Queen Street of 39 minutes (43 from Waverley). So the £2bn has slashed all of two minutes off what was achieved every hour nearly 50 years ago. Actually not even that; if the train was punctual it couldn't do any better because it came in on the heels of a stopping dmu, but if it left Edinburgh a couple of minutes late you would likely hit 100 mph (locos officially 90 mph limit) and get there in 37 minutes. I was a regular on this. Nowadays I'm dismayed that the stoppers and the express have just been merged into one slower service - and worse, often done with just a 3-car unit, and standing passengers even off peak.

 

[185143]

I've seen this happen quite a few times at Warrington C. Northern will turn a late running Liverpool-Manchester into an express to prevent the TPE & EM fasts from tripping over them.

It wouldn't surprise me if it happens more often than it did to me. There was many occassions where i'd got stuck for 15/20 minutes at the passing loop (or is it a siding) near Glazebrook/Birchwood (I think, route knowledge has deteriorated since I left uni). All because TPE had ended up late for whatever reason.

the loop is between Irlam and Glazebrook, near the signal box

 

[47271]

Actually the service introduced in May 1971 with two 1960s Class 27 locos and six Mk2 coaches had a timetabled nonstop time from Haymarket to Queen Street of 39 minutes (43 from Waverley). So the £2bn has slashed all of two minutes off what was achieved every hour nearly 50 years ago. Actually not even that; if the train was punctual it couldn't do any better because it came in on the heels of a stopping dmu, but if it left Edinburgh a couple of minutes late you would likely hit 100 mph (locos officially 90 mph limit) and get there in 37 minutes. I was a regular on this. Nowadays I'm dismayed that the stoppers and the express have just been merged into one slower service - and worse, often done with just a 3-car unit, and standing passengers even off peak.

Off topic, but a note in defence of the current Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle compared with the push pull era.

I commuted daily on it for around eight years from the mid 2000s. Like you, I grumbled that it's slower now then it was when I first used it in the late 1980s and the push pulls, by then extremely unreliably operated by clapped out 47/7s that had been thrashed back and fore for a decade. Maybe the 27s were better on that front, but over time I doubt if they took any better to that sort of treatment.

Both then and now the route saw or sees a departure every 15 minutes in both directions. Then the express service, leaving on the hour and half hour, stopped only at Haymarket and Falkirk High. The stopper - an equally unreliable dmu, I had one that managed three inches down the platform at Waverley before it failed - went all stations via Grahamston and each one was overtaken by the following push pull.

Now all four per hour go via High. Those on the hour and half hour stop additionally at Croy, providing an excellent park and ride service to Edinburgh for that part of North Lanarkshire. Those at 15 and 45 stop at Linlithgow and Polmont, opening up expresses to Glasgow from West Lothian and the eastern Falkirk area. Grahamston and points north are well covered by other services.

It took me a while to twig this and cheer up as an end to end user, but a slightly slower turn up and go service that runs every 15 minutes is actually a bit quicker than a 42 or so minute one if you allow for the time spent waiting for the thing to depart from either end!

The mk3 push pulls were much nicer to travel in but were hopelessly unreliable towards the end due to locomotive faults. I think that in eight years of daily commuting on 170s the train itself was the cause of delay or cancellation only about a dozen times.

My point about EGIP costs wasn't at all serious. If we can get 37 minute end to end times with something close to the current stopping pattern, and the present overcrowding is massively reduced, then the route will be providing a great service.

 

[ComUtoR]

For most TOCs the only incentivised element of performance with the DfT is self caused cancellations, which gives TOCs an incentive not to cancel trains at times of disruption. And there have been numerous examples of that happening, when a TOC close to its cancellation threshold will run trains around over an hour late on a 10/15 minute frequency service.

I'm not sure where I stand on this point. I have been standing on the platform at London Bridge with trains running 90+ minutes late showing a board of trains running ridiculously late. The chaos it can cause is frankly shocking.

Sometimes cancelling a train is the lesser of two evils. You see a cancellation and make alternative arrangements.

From a professional standpoint I do wonder some times if control are aware of the problems that the decisions they make have on the traveling public. The "service" seems to take priority over passenger.

 

[Taunton]

Off topic, but a note in defence of the current Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttle compared with the push pull era.....My point about EGIP costs wasn't at all serious. If we can get 37 minute end to end times with something close to the current stopping pattern, and the present overcrowding is massively reduced, then the route will be providing a great service.

True, but I rather think that the headline time will be for a notional nonstop, which may or may not be actually timetabled. And I just wanted to make the point about previous runs in this time.

I wrote about these times a while ago, here

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1574189&highlight=Eastfield#post1574189

 

[47271]

True, but I rather think that the headline time will be for a notional nonstop, which may or may not be actually timetabled. And I just wanted to make the point about previous runs in this time.

I wrote about these times a while ago, here

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1574189&highlight=Eastfield#post1574189

A great post from a couple of years ago, I hadn't seen it before and learned a lot from it, many thanks for highlighting. Fingers crossed for the electric service...

 

[70014IronDuke]

True, but I rather think that the headline time will be for a notional nonstop, which may or may not be actually timetabled. And I just wanted to make the point about previous runs in this time.

I wrote about these times a while ago, here

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1574189&highlight=Eastfield#post1574189

that is a masterful description of the 2xCl 27s etc saga.

I love the bit about the Eastfield and Haymarket crews.

You also raise the question of the Swindon units that were deemed life-expired. Interesting nobody else seems to have questioned that.

Did they use to run as 2 x 3 car units - including a buffet car in one of the stets? (I did see some of these, I'm sure, but was too young to notice or worry about it at the time).

Or perhaps the 8 buffet cars were for other services worked by these units? (Did they ever use them to Aberdeen or Inverness?)

 

[infobleep]

During severe delays, a stopper I boarded turned into a fast one night, running non-stop from Victoria to London Bridge. I walked down the train to find I was the only passenger on board!

If the 8.34 Euston to Tring is running 15-20 minutes late it would be run non stop to Tring. You might not known this until a few minutes before it arrives and potentially after the slow stopping service to Watford Junction had already left!

The 8.34 in such cases would be practically empty. Don't remember trains from Tring running nonstop to Euston during morning disruption though. Only seemed to be those going northwards.

 

[Taunton]

You also raise the question of the Swindon units that were deemed life-expired. Interesting nobody else seems to have questioned that.

Did they use to run as 2 x 3 car units - including a buffet car in one of the stets? (I did see some of these, I'm sure, but was too young to notice or worry about it at the time).

Or perhaps the 8 buffet cars were for other services worked by these units? (Did they ever use them to Aberdeen or Inverness?)

Well off topic here, and actually the Class 27 changeover came a few months before I went to Scotland, but I understand the old Swindon units were treated more as loose vehicles, and although you could have formed them into 2x3 car units they were commonly run with two power cars at each end and the two trailers together in the middle. Half the power cars had a Swindon-type full width cab, and the other half had a corridor connection and a narrow side cab, 4-CEP style. The end cars were unusual compared to other dmus in that the guards' compartment was at the cab end, denying the passengers a view of the road ahead. One of the trailers in the set did have a buffet, which is noted in timetables of the period. Some 3-car units were also formed for local services with either type of power car astride a trailer. There are photos of various oddball formations, including 6-car units with one of the intermediate cab power cars actually leading.

A further 7 "proper" 3-car units were built later by Swindon for the Aberdeen-Inverness service, these had a small buffet in the trailer which, at least in their first years, was staffed on this route as well. These also had Manson's tablet exchangers for the mostly single track route, mounted not at the drivers cab as with locomotives but in the guards compartment, with buzzer codes between them to confirm the tablet exchange.

 

[PHILIPE]

ATW will often do this on the Valleys services.

When a train is running late, they miss out the intermediate stations between Cardiff Queen Street and Radyr or Pontypridd and make announcements to that effect. You have to be aware of this, mind you, as the platform announcements aren't often too loud, and if you're on the train, you can't always hear them if they're not repeated on the train.

I'm not sure how late a train has to be for this to happen, but if I see that the one I want is running quite late (say 20 / 30 minutes) and everything else is also delayed, I'm pretty wary of getting on, as my stop (Cathays) will be omitted.

I've been caught once or twice ... but hopefully no more! (Fingers Crossed!)

Run non-stop between Cardiff Queen St and Caerphilly also in similar circumstances.. Quite frequent too on Coryton Branch, Barry island and Penarth. Re the latter, if engine out Dingle Road on the incline will be omitted and passengers get off on the way back.

 

[Parallel]

There was an update on GWR's journey check about an hour ago showing that stops had been omitted at Lympstone Village, Lympstone Commando and Exton on a late running Exmouth - Paignton train. The train started Exmouth 11 late and was 7 late leaving Topsham.

Quite rare to see this happen - Usually a late running service just gets capped at Topsham. The same happens at the other end of the line at Newton Abbot, although occasionally the metro services do run non-stop to Paignton, not calling at Torre and Torquay. I've never heard of trains skipping stops on the Barnstaple line, although I have seen a journey check update of a train terminating at Eggesford with a train fault.