Single vs period ticket pricing

[miklcct]

I really feel that bus prices in the UK are a rip off. There are many reasons but here my point is about single vs period (such as day, month, year) tickets. The lower priced a period in terms of multiple of single, the more rip off a single is.

I'm now travelling in a continental European city. There is no true single ticket with the closest equivalent a 30-minute ticket priced at 0.65 €, and a 60-minute one priced at 0.9 €.

Longer period tickets include:
1 day 5 €
3 days 8 €
5 days 12 €
10 days 15 €
30 days 29 €
3 months 81 €
6 months 157 €
9 months 235 €
12 months 310 €

And for all 30 or longer days ticket, there is also a work day only (valid only on work days in the period, i.e. with less validity than a full period) version available at about 90% of the price.

Most journeys in the city can be done in 30 minutes while those from further out need 60 minutes. So a 30-day ticket needs about 44 shorter journeys or 32 longer journeys to break even, while a day ticket will need 8 short journeys or 6 long journeys to break even, that even a normal tourist may not reach the break-even price compared to paying for each journey separately.

So the period tickets are giving only a small discount compared to paying for each journey individually, which, in effect, the price per journey is fairly similar if you are an ad-hoc user or a regular user.

In contrast, the 30-day ticket by an operator in my town is only priced at about 20x of a single ticket, with a day ticket costing only 1.5x of a single, I really feel that the price is truly unfair for a regular user like me - to the extent that I regularly travel only a single 3 times per week, or 14 journeys a month on 14 different days. (In fact, all my regular journeys are returns, however due to the timetable I use one operator out, the competing one back. One offers longer hours with circuitous routing, another offers shorter hours with frequent direct service)

Such rip off fares are a large disincentive for bus travel to the extent that I'm being put off to a larger supermarket 5 km away from home, taking about 8 minutes by bus.

Why are single fares set at a level to discourage travel instead of attracting extra journeys? If instead, a single is set at £1.50 and a monthly at £75, instead of £3.10 and £61, people are less likely to be put off from travelling. Especially it's such a disincentive for people to get to work by bus if they don't work full time, that they may even not bother to get to work at all instead of working part time using cheap bus to commute.

 

[Megafuss]

I can see this thread going down an ENCTS rabbithole already......

 

[GusB]

In contrast, the 30-day ticket by an operator in my town is only priced at about 20x of a single ticket, with a day ticket costing only 1.5x of a single, I really feel that the price is truly unfair for a regular user like me - to the extent that I regularly travel only a single 3 times per week, or 14 journeys a month on 14 different days. (In fact, all my regular journeys are returns, however due to the timetable I use one operator out, the competing one back. One offers longer hours with circuitous routing, another offers shorter hours with frequent direct service)

I'm not going to go down the "why single fares are expensive" rabbit hole, but if you're making a return trip, but using two different operators, would you not be better using a Getting About ticket?

Getting About Ticket

Your guide to travel around Bournemouth, Poole, and the South East Dorset conurbation

www.gettingabout.co.uk

At £5 (Smart card price) it seems like fairly good value ticket for the area covered and the number of operators you can use it on.

Obviously I don't know exactly what journey you're making, nor how far you're travelling, but it's not bad if you need the flexibility of more than one operator. Alternatively, if it's price you're conscious of more than anything else, you could forego some of the flexibility and just buy a single operator ticket.

 

[miklcct]

but if you're making a return trip, but using two different operators, would you not be better using a Getting About ticket?

A Getting About day ticket is £5. If the best value ticket for making just 2 journeys in a day is a day ticket, that means the single ticket is a rip off, which is the exact topic of this thread.

Also, although most of my journeys are return journeys using different operators, on some days I'm making only 1 journey with the return by e.g. bike hire, another's car, etc. as well.

 

[mmh]

I'm now travelling in a continental European city.

Oh, just say which city it is. You're not an international man of mystery! (You let MI5 on a regular basis you'll be the guy running for the train somewhere in the home counties)

 

[GusB]

A Getting About day ticket is £5. If the best value ticket for making just 2 journeys in a day is a day ticket, that means the single ticket is a rip off, which is the exact topic of this thread.

Also, although most of my journeys are return journeys using different operators, on some days I'm making only 1 journey with the return by e.g. bike hire, another's car, etc. as well.

Could you actually provide some figures? How much is your single ticket and how far is the journey? It would at least allow us to compare with other areas to determine whether or not you're being ripped off.

 

[miklcct]

Could you actually provide some figures? How much is your single ticket and how far is the journey? It would at least allow us to compare with other areas to determine whether or not you're being ripped off.

An example is Lansdowne to Bournemouth Hospital. morebus changes £3 for 4.8 km journey. The timetable allows 9 minutes but in practice it can be done in 7 minutes.

Oh, just say which city it is. You're not an international man of mystery! (You let MI5 on a regular basis you'll be the guy running for the train somewhere in the home counties)

Vilnius

 

[Man of Kent]

What are the relative business and personal tax rates in Vilnius compared to Bournemouth?
How stringent are the laws governing transport operation?
What restrictions are there on traffic of various categories in either location?
What is the pattern of development and the cost of property?
What is the average wage?
International comparisons are not really valid without andwering these kind of questions.

 

[miklcct]

What are the relative business and personal tax rates in Vilnius compared to Bournemouth?
How stringent are the laws governing transport operation?
What restrictions are there on traffic of various categories in either location?
What is the pattern of development and the cost of property?
What is the average wage?
International comparisons are not really valid without andwering these kind of questions.

If we use London as comparison target instead, it still makes elsewhere in the UK a rip off. The bus fare is capped at 3x singles in London, so it's only those travelling for more than 3 journeys a day pay on average less per trip, and the monthly bus pass is £89.50, 54.2x of single fare.

This shows London has a fairer system compared to other rip off areas.

 

[RT4038]

What are the relative business and personal tax rates in Vilnius compared to Bournemouth?
How stringent are the laws governing transport operation?
What restrictions are there on traffic of various categories in either location?
What is the pattern of development and the cost of property?
What is the average wage?
International comparisons are not really valid without andwering these kind of questions.

How much subsidy is the bus operation being paid to keep fares down? In Bournemouth, very little, In Vilnius ....... ?

 

[Starmill]

I really feel that bus prices in the UK are a rip off.

Most private transport fares are, including most bus fares in England.

 

[Megafuss]

Most private transport fares are, including most bus fares in England.

Most bus fares in England are closer to the cost of providing the service

 

[miklcct]

How much subsidy is the bus operation being paid to keep fares down? In Bournemouth, very little, In Vilnius ....... ?

Vilnius public transport is state owned. Same as London. These two places both have high public transport usage.

In fact the monthly bus pass in London is more expensive than monthly tickets by private operators in the country. However, London doesn't have rip-off single bus fares.

 

[py_megapixel]

Most bus fares in England are closer to the cost of providing the service

And we're back to that perennial question, which essentially boils down to "is that a good thing".

 

[Megafuss]

And we're back to that perennial question, which essentially boils down to "is that a good thing".

Exactly. Either the user pays or the taxpayer pays more. That's what this all boils down to when all the arguments are said and done

 

[Starmill]

Most bus fares in England are closer to the cost of providing the service

Indeed. In my view this is exactly why it's wrong. Public transport cannot and should not be made to cover it's cash costs however because it provides non-cash benefits (including to the people who do not use it, or don't use it much).

 

[miklcct]

The main point of this thread is the proportion of single vs period tickets, not the actual fare level.

London is known to have expensive public transport but still it's usage is high. If we compare the monthly tickets in London and elsewhere in the UK, London is more expensive; but we seldom find those £1.65 bus fares elsewhere in the country.

 

[Starmill]

The main point of this thread is the proportion of single vs period tickets, not the actual fare level.

But both single tickets and day and season tickets are frequently set at very high levels. Cornwall is now an example of an exception, but this may be temporary.

 

[GusB]

The main point of this thread is the proportion of single vs period tickets, not the actual fare level.

What difference does the proportion of the fare really make when you've already made it clear in an earlier post that most of your journeys are returns?

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that single fares are high, but it's on a par with what I pay here. In fact, your £3 gets you half a mile further than mine does. When I found out how much the fare was to the next village, I decided to walk.

Unfortunately, this is the reality when many bus routes have to operate on a commercial basis. As others have pointed out, if you want cheap public transport, it has to be funded, and in the UK there's not that much appetite for it being paid for out of the public purse.

London is known to have expensive public transport but still it's usage is high. If we compare the monthly tickets in London and elsewhere in the UK, London is more expensive; but we seldom find those £1.65 bus fares elsewhere in the country.

£1.65 is expensive?! If I recall correctly, there has been a fares freeze in London, so that's artificially low in my book.

London has a population of around 9 million people, so you'd expect usage to be high in a city of that size. London's operating environment is different too.

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

 

[miklcct]

What difference does the proportion of the fare really make when you've already made it clear in an earlier post that most of your journeys are returns?

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that single fares are high, but it's on a par with what I pay here. In fact, your £3 gets you half a mile further than mine does. When I found out how much the fare was to the next village, I decided to walk.

Unfortunately, this is the reality when many bus routes have to operate on a commercial basis. As others have pointed out, if you want cheap public transport, it has to be funded, and in the UK there's not that much appetite for it being paid for out of the public purse.

I'm talking about pure commercial decision here. Why don't the operators charge less for singles and more for seasons like London, at levels revenue-neutral compared to the current rip off?

£1.65 is expensive?! If I recall correctly, there has been a fares freeze in London, so that's artificially low in my book.

London has a population of around 9 million people, so you'd expect usage to be high in a city of that size. London's operating environment is different too.

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

London frequently tops the list of fares comparison around the world.

 

[GusB]

I'm talking about pure commercial decision here. Why don't the operators charge less for singles and more for seasons like London, at levels revenue-neutral compared to the current rip off?

So you want penalise people who make multiple journeys, perhaps not having access to another form of transport, so that you can have a cheaper single when you decide that you want to make a one-way journey (when most of your journeys are returns anyway)?

London frequently tops the list of fares comparison around the world.

But London is not the rest of the UK...

 

[miklcct]

So you want penalise people who make multiple journeys, perhaps not having access to another form of transport, so that you can have a cheaper single when you decide that you want to make a one-way journey (when most of your journeys are returns anyway)?

I want to penalise people who travel 5 or 6 days per week over months and have them to pay their fair share of fare in terms of increased monthly price, while those who travel for 3 or 4 days per week on average, making only a single or return each day or less will benefit by reduced single prices.

For example, reduce a single to £2 and return to £4, but increase the day ticket to £6, week ticket to £24 and month ticket to £90. These prices are similar to what London is doing now.

 

[RT4038]

I want to penalise people who travel 5 or 6 days per week over months and have them to pay their fair share of fare in terms of increased monthly price, while those who travel for 3 or 4 days per week on average, making only a single or return each day or less will benefit by reduced single prices.

For example, reduce a single to £2 and return to £4, but increase the day ticket to £6, week ticket to £24 and month ticket to £90. These prices are similar to what London is doing now.

Outside of London the bus companies operate the fares in what they see as their best commercial interest, not necessarily what a passenger might consider as 'fair'

In a deregulated, competitive environment, if individual single fares are cheap, then the first bus that comes along will scoop up all the passengers. If passengers have pre purchased tickets (returns, day tickets, period tickets etc) then they will stand back from the first bus that comes and wait for the bus that they have a ticket for. Hence make single fares expensive to induce passengers to purchase these multiple use tickets and lock in their custom, rather than relying on your bus being first at the stop every time. The regulated area of London does not need to take this into consideration when setting fares.

I know that there is not ever so much competitive activity nowadays, but one of the reasons for this is because of the success of this strategy (Travel West Midlands being a classic example)

The high price of tickets is also influenced by the ENCTS reimbursement calculations (as alluded to in post #2), as well as the low rate of bus subsidy in the provinces and the lower densities of population/higher car ownership and usage resulting in lower average loadings per bus. Lower subsidy = Higher fares = lower taxes for everyone is the theory.

You might not like it, but the provincial bus services in the UK operate in a deregulated, low subsidy environment and cannot be reasonably compared to other systems in London or elsewhere in Europe without taking this into account.
Whether you think this is fair or not can be debated, but that is where we are.

 

[Man of Kent]

You might not like it, but the provincial bus services in the UK operate in a deregulated, low subsidy environment and cannot be reasonably compared to other systems in London or elsewhere in Europe without taking this into account.

And just to quantify that, the gap between revenue and costs for the London bus network pre-Covid was around £600m per annum. Meanwhile the rest of England, according to figures compiled by the Campaign for Better Transport, spent £219m on subsidising services in 2018/19.

 

[JonathanH]

I want to penalise people who travel 5 or 6 days per week over months and have them to pay their fair share of fare in terms of increased monthly price, while those who travel for 3 or 4 days per week on average, making only a single or return each day or less will benefit by reduced single prices.

That is terrible though. Those people who rely on the bus day in, day out, perhaps key workers or lowly paid people who have to get to their place of work on a daily basis should not be priced out to make the fares cheaper for those who have a bit more discretion about their journeys.

 

[HullRailMan]

Perhaps a more reasonable compromise is the ‘flexi’ ticket concept. No idea how widespread it is, but here in Hull you can get operator specific tickets which, for the same price as a 7 day ticket, offer 5 discounted day tickets to use ad hoc in a 12 month period. Therefore, infrequent bus users can still be offered some form of discount on the regular day ticket price.

In terms of single prices, as suggested, the answer lies with ENCS. Even without this though, it’s hardly an unusual pricing strategy to reward loyalty and those who buy in ‘bulk’. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to suggest frequent bus users can get a lower cost per journey than ad hoc users.

 

[miklcct]

In a deregulated, competitive environment, if individual single fares are cheap, then the first bus that comes along will scoop up all the passengers. If passengers have pre purchased tickets (returns, day tickets, period tickets etc) then they will stand back from the first bus that comes and wait for the bus that they have a ticket for. Hence make single fares expensive to induce passengers to purchase these multiple use tickets and lock in their custom, rather than relying on your bus being first at the stop every time. The regulated area of London does not need to take this into consideration when setting fares.

In a competitive environment, using such pricing strategy will just make bus companies lose more customers than gaining them. When single tickets are cheap, people will just hop on the first available bus, and bus companies will increase frequencies, further attracting ad-hoc users, but when single tickets are expensive, people likely won't travel at all if they have no idea which company's bus will come first in the return journey.

 

[RT4038]

And just to quantify that, the gap between revenue and costs for the London bus network pre-Covid was around £600m per annum. Meanwhile the rest of England, according to figures compiled by the Campaign for Better Transport, spent £219m on subsidising services in 2018/19.

Much of that £219m being paid to support uneconomic services, there being no effective mechanism to subsidise fares.

 

[GusB]

In a competitive environment, using such pricing strategy will just make bus companies lose more customers than gaining them. When single tickets are cheap, people will just hop on the first available bus, and bus companies will increase frequencies, further attracting ad-hoc users, but when single tickets are expensive, people likely won't travel at all if they have no idea which company's bus will come first in the return journey.

Just to be absolutely clear, I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with you that single fares are too expensive.

However, your idea of increasing the price of multi-journey tickets to lower the price of singles is, to be blunt, nonsensical. If you increase season ticket prices beyond a certain point, you run the risk of driving away your bread-and-butter passengers entirely. A monthly Megarider for me is just short of £80. Any more than that and driving becomes a more attractive proposition, especially when I could use a car in the evenings and on Sundays when there is no bus provision at all.

You live in an urban area with a choice of operators. Consider yourself lucky, as it's a choice that I, and many others in various parts of the country, don't have. Some people don't have a bus service at all.

 

[43066]

Indeed. In my view this is exactly why it's wrong. Public transport cannot and should not be made to cover it's cash costs however because it provides non-cash benefits (including to the people who do not use it, or don't use it much).

In which case I’m sure you’ll agree that, by the same token, the fact revenues slumped over the pandemic should not be used as a justification for lowering pay in real terms and/or worsening the Ts and Cs of transport staff.