Single Justice Procedure Notice - Help

[geosamfry]

Hi everyone,

I have received a Single Justice Procedure Notice from Northern Rail following a mistake I made a few months back, where I got on the wrong train (and my ticket wasn't valid).

My fair was around £15, and I've now been sent a Settlement Offer that says "Our offer is £100 plus the outstanding fare which must be paid by credit/debit card within 21 days of the Date of Posting which is printed on your Notice".

Is there anyway I can just pay my initial fare?

I won't be travelling with Northern Rail ever again as a result of this, as I'm a customer who spends an absolute tonne on their trains travelling weekly, and one mistake in years of travelling has greeted me with a court order. I don't live at the address on my previous driving license, so I had never seen an initial letter. It's all an absolute joke.

Anyway, if there's any advice anyone could give me, that would be great.

Thanks in advance

 

[AlterEgo]

It will depend on what, exactly, happened, and whether you committed an offence.

If you did commit an offence, then you will have to pay the offer to settle out of court.

If you believe there are grounds to argue you did not commit an offence, tell us what happened and we will be able to advise if you have a defence.

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

 

[Elecman]

What have Northern actually sent you, a Single Justice Notice or an offer to settle out of court, the 2 aren’t the same thing

 

[geosamfry]

@AlterEgo

I got on the wrong connection from Doncaster to Leeds on my way back from London. My ticket was for LNER, and I got on Northern Rail, without realising. So yes, I presented a ticket, it just turns out it was the wrong one/not valid for this particular connection.

The man who checked my ticket was seemingly very nice and just said I'd got the wrong train and therefore I'll have to pay it another day. I didn't get offered another ticket. I have since moved from the property where the letters were being sent and have therefore only just got one.

It's a Single Justice Procedure Notice, attached with a Settlement Offer.

I would be happy to pay my train fare of course, but I would not be happy to pay anything more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

What have Northern actually sent you, a Single Justice Notice or an offer to settle out of court, the 2 aren’t the same thing

A Single Justice Procedure Notice, saying I have 21 days to plead either GUILTY or NOT GUILTY to the offence. @Elecman

 

[Snow1964]

Just to be clear, when you say you got on the wrong train and your ticket wasn’t valid, do you mean you had a valid ticket, but for another route (which went different way from same start station), or a specific train on the route you travelled (but it was at different time), or you didn’t actually have a ticket.

It would also be useful to know if there was a mitigating factor eg one of trains was late and the next train at the boarding platform was changed at last minute, and it was a complete accident.

If on the other hand you booked a specific train, turned up early or late and just jumped on a different train, would help people to know the facts, as it will influence any recommendations

EDIT just seen your update, couple of minutes ago which overlapped. By connecting train, you mean you had travelled to Doncaster on another train and were changing, rather than started from there

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo

I got on the wrong connection from Doncaster to Leeds on my way back from London. My ticket was for LNER, and I got on Northern Rail, without realising. So yes, I presented a ticket, it just turns out it was the wrong one/not valid for this particular connection.

What type of ticket did you hold? Did it say "LNER and Connections", or "LNER Only"?

 

[geosamfry]

Just to be clear, when you say you got on the wrong train and your ticket wasn’t valid, do you mean you had a valid ticket, but for another route (which went different way from same start station), or a specific train on the route you travelled (but it was at different time), or you didn’t actually have a ticket.

It would also be useful to know if there was a mitigating factor eg one of trains was late and the next train at the boarding platform was changed at last minute, and it was a complete accident.

If on the other hand you booked a specific train, turned up early or late and just jumped on a different train, would help people to know the facts, as it will influence any recommendations

I had a valid ticket but for a different train provider. My ticket was for LNER, but I got on Northern Rail. The train times must have been slightly different, I can't remember.

I don't think there were any mitigating factors - purely a mistake. Long day in London and was making my way back, knew I had to change at Doncaster, saw a train to Leeds and got on it, not thinking.

But yes, your last point: I booked a specific train, jumped on the wrong one to get to the same destination.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

What type of ticket did you hold? Did it say "LNER and Connections", or "LNER Only"?

I have no idea. This was back in February.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have no idea. This was back in February.

This is absolutely critical and you should find the booking and/or the ticket. If it's LNER+connections you have a case, if it was LNER Only you don't.

 

[geosamfry]

This is absolutely critical and you should find the booking and/or the ticket. If it's LNER+connections you have a case, if it was LNER Only you don't.

Here's my ticket. This is all I can find. Suggests that it's just LNER, not connections.

 

[AlterEgo]

Here's my ticket. This is all I can find. Suggests that it's just LNER, not connections.

OK thanks, I see you split your tickets.

The ticket you have there unfortunately is valid only on LNER so Northern are within their rights to prosecute you in the Magistrates' Court. I can't say I find that a particularly sensible use of their time, but it is where we are unfortunately.

What is the offence for which they are prosecuting you, on the notice?

 

[geosamfry]

OK thanks, I see you split your tickets.

The ticket you have there unfortunately is valid only on LNER so Northern are within their rights to prosecute you in the Magistrates' Court. I can't say I find that a particularly sensible use of their time, but it is where we are unfortunately.

What is the offence for which they are prosecuting you, on the notice?

I am being charged with "having made a rail journey between Doncaster and Leeds failed, on request by an officer or servant of the railway company, to produce and deliver up a ticket showing that your fare was paid or to pay the fare."

This is actually false - firstly, I produced a ticket showing that I'd paid a fare, just for the wrong train (which I know is pointless in saying, but it's a point).

But more so why this is false - the officer didn't give me the option to buy a ticket. He said he needed to take my details and that I'd have to pay my fair when I received the letter, but I didn't receive anything.

 

[skyhigh]

He said he needed to take my details and that I'd have to pay my fair when I received the letter, but I didn't receive anything.

You said you didn't get the letters because you changed address, so how do you know they didn't offer you to simply pay the fare?

Personally I would advise contacting Northern, explaining you didn't get the letters due to moving address and ask to settle the matter. They are generally fairly pragmatic- I'd suggest they only moved to court action because they didn't get a response to their letters.

Regardless of why, you didn't have a valid ticket and they are fully entitled to take you to court.

 

[geosamfry]

You said you didn't get the letters because you changed address, so how do you know they didn't offer you to simply pay the fare?

Personally I would advise contacting Northern, explaining you didn't get the letters due to moving address and ask to settle the matter. They are generally fairly pragmatic- I'd suggest they only moved to court action because they didn't get a response to their letters.

Regardless of why, you didn't have a valid ticket and they are fully entitled to take you to court.

But acknowledging them will give them leverage to get me to pay a stupidly hefty fine for a mistake? Honestly, the amount of trains they cancel and that are late, and yet they take this action with their loyal passengers. They're idiots.

 

[skyhigh]

But acknowledging them will give them leverage to get me to pay a stupidly hefty fine for a mistake?

Don't acknowledge them and the only option is to go to court, and they will almost certainly win.

Honestly, the amount of trains they cancel and that are late, and yet they take this action with their loyal passengers. They're idiots.

That is irrelevant at this point. Unless you take action, this will be going to court now a SJPN has been issued.

 

[geosamfry]

Don't acknowledge them and the only option is to go to court, and they will almost certainly win.

That is irrelevant at this point. Unless you take action, this will be going to court now a SJPN has been issued.

I might just not respond.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I might just not respond.

You will be found guilty if you don’t settle. My advice would be to get over your anger and pay the settlement to make it go away, for your own sake. You clearly had an LNER advance single and even irregular travellers know you should get the booked train(s) on an advance.

You may have half a leg to stand on only if the Hull Train was delayed and you missed the booked LNER with your valid connection at Doncaster, even on a split ticket. But normally you should take the next journey on the same operator even if the railway has caused you to miss the connection. At least you should ask the guard on boarding if they will convey you.

Otherwise it’s a strict liability offence and a slam dunk prosecution, particularly if you don’t cooperate.

 

[geosamfry]

You will be found guilty if you don’t settle. My advice would be to get over your anger and pay the settlement to make it go away, for your own sake. You clearly had an LNER advance single and even irregular travellers know you should get the booked train(s) on an advance.

It was a mistake. Not intentional.

Anyway, I'll pay my fine, and then I'll not use their services anymore. I spend much more than £115 a year on their trains, so there is only one loser here. You'd think they'd want to keep their loyal customers sweet, by being cooperative and not sending threatening letters.

 

[skyhigh]

Anyway, I'll pay my fine, and then I'll not use their services anymore.

You don't seem to understand. If a SJPN has been issued, they are not offering a settlement fee or 'fine'. You are going to court unless Northern agrees to offer you a settlement and you pay it. You have to respond to the SJPN or get the case withdrawn by Northern otherwise you will be found guilty by default.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

Just to be clear - did you get the SJPN after the settlement offer, or before?

 

[geosamfry]

You don't seem to understand. If a SJPN has been issued, they are not offering a settlement fee or 'fine'. You are going to court unless Northern agrees to offer you a settlement and you pay it. You have to respond to the SJPN or get the case withdrawn by Northern otherwise you will be found guilty by default.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

Just to be clear - did you get the SJPN after the settlement offer, or before?

I got them both in the same envelope.

 

[Snow1964]

It was a mistake. Not intentional.

Anyway, I'll pay my fine, and then I'll not use their services anymore. I spend much more than £115 a year on their trains, so there is only one loser here. You'd think they'd want to keep their loyal customers sweet, by being cooperative and not sending threatening letters.

I understand your anger, but you don’t want a court to find you guilty (even if not intentional). Ultimately if you ignore and found guilty could lead to criminal status, credit problems, bailiffs etc.

If you no longer wish to spend hundreds of pounds per year with Northern trains, because they said you could pay, then renaged on it, that is your choice, and their loss.

 

[30907]

It was a mistake. Not intentional.

No doubt - though if you are an experienced enough traveller to use split tickets, you should be aware of the T&Cs of what you buy.

 

[mikeg]

Is it just me or given that it's gotten as far as an SJP and the wrong legislation possibly having been used is there a small chance of defence albeit a rather technical one?
I mean the SJP has been issued presumably if the OP were to plead 'not.guilty' they can't change it this late? This is actually crucial as was whether the OP made an offer to pay the outstanding fare.

However I'd be praying for a district judge on this rather than three noddies. I don't want to give the OP false hope if there's a reason such a defence may fail or if it's likely to be withdrawn and reissued.

 

[John Palmer]

I don't live at the address on my previous driving license, so I had never seen an initial letter.

I have since moved from the property where the letters were being sent and have therefore only just got one.

Can you please clarify these statements? Were you asked for your name and address by the person who asked you to produce your ticket? If so, was the address you gave your correct address at the time you gave it? Potentially this could be significant because the wording of the charge suggests that you are being prosecuted for an offence under Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Assuming your post #11 contains the full wording of the charge as it appears on the SJPN, it has omitted the further option made available to the passanger by Section 5(1): that of providing his name and address when required to produce his ticket. So it would be helpful to know whether you availed yourself of that option by providing the railway official with what was your correct address at that time.

There is potentially a further issue about whether the railway operator lacked the requisite authority to issue a SJPN for what appears to be an offence other than a railway byelaw offence.

 

[Hadders]

Is it just me or given that it's gotten as far as an SJP and the wrong legislation possibly having been used is there a small chance of defence albeit a rather technical one?
I mean the SJP has been issued presumably if the OP were to plead 'not.guilty' they can't change it this late? This is actually crucial as was whether the OP made an offer to pay the outstanding fare.

However I'd be praying for a district judge on this rather than three noddies. I don't want to give the OP false hope if there's a reason such a defence may fail or if it's likely to be withdrawn and reissued.

I would not want to reply on that defence. I suspect the RPI would simply say that the OP didn't offer to pay their fare and you're then into one persons word against another.

There is nothing stopping Northern reissuing the summons for a different offence if they so wished.

 

[Wolfie]

I might just not respond.

In which case you will be found guilty and in due course face bailiffs and/or an attachment to earnings, possible travel problems (getting a visa with a criminal conviction can be an issue), potential employment issues.....

 

[Deafdoggie]

It was a mistake. Not intentional.

Anyway, I'll pay my fine, and then I'll not use their services anymore. I spend much more than £115 a year on their trains, so there is only one loser here. You'd think they'd want to keep their loyal customers sweet, by being cooperative and not sending threatening letters.

Personally I'd pay it and buy a car. It's much less stressful. I can't believe I used to put myself through the ordeal of rail travel! Pay it and get a car is the only sensible course of action.

 

[WesternLancer]

You said you didn't get the letters because you changed address, so how do you know they didn't offer you to simply pay the fare?

Personally I would advise contacting Northern, explaining you didn't get the letters due to moving address and ask to settle the matter. They are generally fairly pragmatic- I'd suggest they only moved to court action because they didn't get a response to their letters.

Regardless of why, you didn't have a valid ticket and they are fully entitled to take you to court.

This is good advice IMHO. OP should try to follow it in my view.

 

[XAM2175]

Additionally, next time you move house, update your driver's licence (it's a legal requirement) and take out a redirection for your mail.

 

[furlong]

Perhaps it's worth uploading a picture of this correspondence with identifying details covered up?

As John Palmer suggests, we need to see exactly what legislation is quoted and what stage this has already reached, as what you've written so far rings alarm bells that you might have no case to answer. (Possibly wrong offence and substantive procedural error.)

There is nothing stopping Northern reissuing the summons for a different offence if they so wished.

There are some limits on this both in theory and in the way situations play out in practice.

 

[30907]

Perhaps it's worth uploading a picture of this correspondence with identifying details covered up?

As John Palmer suggests, we need to see exactly what legislation is quoted and what stage this has already reached, as what you've written so far rings alarm bells that you might have no case to answer. (Possibly wrong offence and substantive procedural error.)

I having criticised the OP upthread, but if indeed they were not offered an opportunity to pay for a new ticket, and if Northern do not deny this (their account may differ, unfortunately) then I agree - a Byelaw offence prosecution would succeed, but not a RoRA one.