Single journey within boundaries of ticket

[londiscape]

Hi All,

Just wanted to seek advice from this forum with regards to the definition of what constitutes a journey within the boundaries of the start and destination points of one's ticket.

I travel regularly between Euston and Bletchley for work purposes. Until about six months ago It was my custom to purchase a EUS to BLY off peak day return at the EUS TVMs and board whichever LM service was next. Until I tried to board a VT service to Milton Keynes one day (with the intention of 'hopping back' to BLY once there) in ignorance of routing rules and was quite rightly turned away and told by the VT gate line that I was not permitted to do so because I would be travelling outside the boundaries of my ticket.

Nowadays, to do the same journey I purchase a EUS to MKC Std Off Peak Day Return endorsed ANY PERMITTED (DM) for £22 to do this journey. My objective is to be able to have the option of using the fast VT services to MKC and hopping back if desired, and equally to do the same in the return direction in the evening (going BLY to MKC and getting a fast to EUS).

Although I haven't been challenged on this yet, is this actually within the rules? Could an LM or Southern guard theoretically PF me on the hop back from MKC to BLY because I have already completed one journey from EUS to MKC and therefore the Out portion of my ticket is 'spent'? Or am I (as I currently believe unless advised to the contrary) just completing a journey within the bounds of my ticket and be OK?

Many thanks,
Londiscape

 

[yorkie]

Euston - Bletchley is not valid via MKC (in contrast, of course, to Euston - Fenny Stratford & beyond, which is valid to double back - but only for the purposes of interchange - see Group station rule).

Either portion of a Euston - MKC ticket is valid for a "break of journey" at Bletchley, thus allowing EITHER Euston - MKC & MKC - Bletchley & Bletchley - Euston journeys (without doubling-back) OR Euston - Bletchley & Bletchley - MKC & MKC - Euston journeys (without doubling-back).

Once the return portion has commenced, the outward has no validity whatsoever, as the outward portion is only valid when still in possession of the unused return portion.

You may not re-use any part of a ticket.

If you were caught re-using a ticket, and it was believed to be a mistake, then yes you are liable to pay for a new fare, which may be a Penalty Fare, which is applicable to passengers who make mistakes under certain circumstances. If it is believed to be intentional, then you are liable for prosecution.

I hope that clarifies; further information is available in our Fares Guide by following the links provided above, but if there is any part of it that you are unsure of, please let us know.

 

[maniacmartin]

You're slightly confused as to how ticket validity is defined. There is no notion of the "boundaries" of a ticket, except zonal tickets such as Travelcards and Rovers.

For a ticket there is a list of "permitted routes", based on the origin and destination of the ticket. An "Any Permitted" ticket lets you use any of those permitted routes, once only (except seasons)

If you have a ticket from London Terminals to Milton Keynes Central, then you can of course go via Bletchley. With some tickets you can 'break your journey' at Bletchley and resume it later, but you cannot cover the same stations twice on either of the outbound or return.

To go to Bletchley via Milton Keynes, you would to use both parts of the tickets (the Outbound part northwards, and the Return part southwards). You'd use the outbound fully, and use part of the return part to get back to Milton Keynes. As yorkie says, once you've used any part of the return part's validity, you cannot then use the outbound. You can however go on LM from Bletchley to London on the remaining validity of the return portion

Similarly, you can take LM to Bletchley, and return later via Milton Keynes*. But you can't go via Milton Keynes on both the outbound and the return with the ticket you propose. You've only bought one return to Milton Keynes, not two!

* Retain your outbound ticket if you do this, as you'll need it for to for the first leg on your return journey.

 

[Starmill]

Would the follow-on question from this be, is there a good-value combination of tickets that allows Euston - Milton Keynes - Bletchley and then Bletchley - Milton Keynes - Euston? I guess that's the journey you'd most want to make?


I suspect the OP's confusion there, maniacmartin has been caused by the substandard explanation given him by the Virgin staff at Euston as to why he couldn't board a Virgin service to MK :/ Hmmmm.

 

[maniacmartin]

My explanation is confusing. This should make it clear

To go via Milton Keynes in both directions, one solution would be a Return from London to Milton Keynes, and as a totally separate ticket, a return from Milton Keynes to Bletchley. Both sets can be bought from the ticket office at Euston before departure.

To the pedants: I'm aware this isn't actually an exclusive Or, as one could go on LM direct in both directions

 

[londiscape]

Ok I think I understand now.

So in fact my any permitted EUS > MKC return is actually fully used on the VT services if I use two fast VT services in one day (outbound and return). Therefore in this situation I would need a completely fresh LM return from MKC to BLY to cover the two "hops" in either direction.

But I would be OK to use only one fast VT service a day, either out or return, so long as I use a direct LM service for the other half.

So if I use a VT service out in the morning, the best thing to do would be to use the 10 minute wait at MKC before the slow LM turns up to exit the barriers and go and buy a MKC > BLY day return in case I want to use a VT service again in the evening.

Am I reading this right?

Thanks everyone for your replies, very grateful for advice.

Thanks,
Londiscape

 

[causton]

But I would be OK to use only one fast VT service a day, either out or return, so long as I use a direct LM service for the other half.

Not as far as I can tell.

Your portion of your ticket expires when you reach the destination printed on it.

i.e. Milton Keynes - London Terminals
and London Terminals to Milton Keynes.

If you catch a slow train in the morning, your Out portion expires when you reach Euston. Therefore you will not be able to use the first part of the Out again.

If you catch a fast train in the morning, your Return portion expires when you reach Milton Keynes. Also your Outward portion becomes invalid when you start using your Return portion, so your ticket is then effectively invalid.

The only real way is to buy a ticket which allows you to travel Milton Keynes - Bletchley as well as a Milton Keynes - London one.

 

[Mike395]

Not as far as I can tell.

Your portion of your ticket expires when you reach the destination printed on it.

i.e. Milton Keynes - London Terminals
and London Terminals to Milton Keynes.

If you catch a slow train in the morning, your Out portion expires when you reach Euston. Therefore you will not be able to use the first part of the Out again.

If you catch a fast train in the morning, your Return portion expires when you reach Milton Keynes. Also your Outward portion becomes invalid when you start using your Return portion, so your ticket is then effectively invalid.

The only real way is to buy a ticket which allows you to travel Milton Keynes - Bletchley as well as a Milton Keynes - London one.

Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't make sense.

In my view londiscape's interpretation is correct. If one way a direct train between EUS-BLY (or vice versa) is used, the other can be via MKC. Effectively they would be breaking a journey, which is completely permitted on both halves of this ticket (so whichever direction you take the slow train, it is valid).

 

[30907]

I think causton has misunderstood the OP, who is commuting from central London not from BLY .

 

[tony_mac]

Euston - Bletchley is not valid via MKC (in contrast, of course, to Euston - Fenny Stratford & beyond, which is valid to double back -.

In the new Routeing Guide, Bletchley and Milton Keynes are now separate routing points, and so doubling-back is no longer valid.

 

[londiscape]

I think causton has misunderstood the OP, who is commuting from central London not from BLY .

Yes I think 30907 is correct - sorry causton, my journey is out of London in the AM and back in the PM. Destination is BLY, but I often prefer to travel fast to MKC via VT and one stop back for many reasons (including comfort*, quicker journey depending on time of start, and an onboard shop to get a cuppa).

* - yes, I actually find Pendolinos comfortable, especially compared to a 3+2 seating Class 350/2 LM set which doesn't even give you anywhere to put your coffee cup - grrr.

 

[Hadders]

I might be totally wrong about this but wasn't doubling back between MKC and BLY allowed when the inter-city stops were moved from BLY to MKC in the 1980's. I'm sure BR would have considered this 'reasonable'.

I don't know if there was ever an easement allowing this when the routeing guide was introduced, but it might be worth checking.

 

[bb21]

Euston - Bletchley is not valid via MKC (in contrast, of course, to Euston - Fenny Stratford & beyond, which is valid to double back - but only for the purposes of interchange - see Group station rule).

Unfortunately this is no longer the case, as Bletchley Group has been abolished in favour of two separate Routeing Points - Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central. (Legality of the change debatable.)

I don't know if there was ever an easement allowing this when the routeing guide was introduced, but it might be worth checking.

No easement I can see and no such easement in my memory.