Silly question- trains on tramtracks and vice versa

[Comstock]

A really silly question I know. But is there any reason why you can't put a train on a tram track? Or a tram on an ordinary rail line?

Obviously the height of the wires is one consideration. But has this ever been done? Are there any tram systems (Manchester maybe?) with connections on to national rail?

EDIT: on thinking about it, you could obviously only put a tram on a train track if it was being towed.

 

[AlterEgo]

One thing which will be an issue is the quality and weight of the rail. A tram is a light rail vehicle, so a "big" train would be unsuitably heavy for the infrastructure.

A tram usually has a much simpler (and sometimes non existent) signalling system; in fact, this used to be one of the definitions of a tramway. See the Brill Tramway, for example - not what we'd call a tram, but still.

 

[Domh245]

You would only be able to run a Diesel (or steam) train on Tram lines, as Trams use a 750DC overhead whilst National rail stock uses 25kV AC overhead (if at all). You would probably need to take a full possession as well because trams *generally* use a proceed on sight system instead of a proper signalling system and have far superior braking

Going the other way round however is possible with Tram trains, of which some are being tested in Sheffield

 

[pdeaves]

Manchester Metrolink has connections to Network Rail, and the East Lancashire Railway, too. An ELR diesel loco has been used on the tram system for some sort of engineering work, so when the conditions are right it is possible to 'inter-run'.

Years ago it was not unknown for goods wagons to be moved on tramways. Where there was grooved rail the wagons tended to run on their flanges, suggesting that tram vehicles have smaller flanges. May this be a byproduct of (generally) lower speeds and lighter weight vehicles?

There is a project under way to extend the Sheffield tram system over Network Rail track to Rotherham. Specially-designed vehicles are required (and being delivered now, I think).

 

[Bletchleyite]

A large amount of Metrolink's older track, if it hasn't been replaced yet, is old railway track. The trams ride terribly on it, because the shape of the railhead differs slightly.

 

[350405]

There is a link on the Manchester Metrolink north of Radcliffe that links to Bury Bolton St on the East Lancashire Railway through the yard at Bury as it used to be a National rail line. The spur off the tram line looks unused and the railhead is very rusty. The Manchester Metrolink also has its own block signaling system allowing safe operation (in theory)

 

[jp4712]

A Jackson's coach passes a steam locomotive, Altrincham by GMTS Collection, on Flickr

 

[Flying Snail]

As above, there are a few reasons why a heavy rail vehicle would be unsuitable on a tramway; the shallow grove not accommodating the flange, weight issues and the other main problem being the tight radius curves on most tramways that most heavy rail vehicles could not manage (dear god just imagine the screeching a pacer would make).

Of course there have been tramways built to take heavy rail, there are still a few places in america where passenger trains run down city streets. In the UK the most well known (and last used example) would be the Weymouth tramway.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60776...Ubw-cbH6CE-7MCE32-muVmrH-oDDyAK-muXcV9-aXbXer

 

[najaB]

...dear god just imagine the screeching a pacer would make...

Thanks for that. I'll have nightmares for weeks!

 

[Waldgrun]

A clue as to which tramway systems where built, expecting to have railway vehicles running over them, is the gauge. If the track gauge was 4ft & 7 3/4" (Such as Portsmouth) then this is the case. However there is always exceptions, Blackpool being one, although I believe there rail vehicles where only use over off street sections which where normal type rail.

 

[alexl92]

A few months ago, the diesel ususally supplied by the ELR for Metrolink Engineering Trains was unavailable so the railway were given permission to use a steam loco instead - so they operated a Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST over the metrolink line that night!

 

[Comstock]

A few months ago, the diesel ususally supplied by the ELR for Metrolink Engineering Trains was unavailable so the railway were given permission to use a steam loco instead - so they operated a Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST over the metrolink line that night!

Thanks for that

A quick google turned up a video, too

http://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/13791027.VIDEO__Steam_returns_to_Radcliffe_station/

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The metrolink connection with network rail has been taken out at Manchester Victoria.

Think the wheel flanges on heavy rail are bigger requiring a deeper groove. I understand this is the problem in Weymouth and why cyclists keep suing Weymouth Council. Not withstanding the obvious differences betwren heavy rail and light rail which trams come under.

 

[scrapy]

There's also the much poorer visibility from train cabs especially where there's a gangway door at the front. A train driver would struggle to see pedestrians and wouldn't have the same braking ability on a street section of tramway.

 

[superkev]

I've often wondered at what point a railway becomes a tramway.
A couple of facts may be of interest.
At least glasgow and huddersfield tramways where gauged at 4ft 7 3/4 so railway wagons could be accommodated.
Tram wheel flanges often run on the bottom of the groove over points to minimise noise.
The points recently installed between network rail and Sheffield tramway have raised check rails precluding certain types of rail vehicles suck as snowplough fitted locks
May be more.
K

 

[Juniper Driver]

A large amount of Metrolink's older track, if it hasn't been replaced yet, is old railway track. The trams ride terribly on it, because the shape of the railhead differs slightly.

I've been on it up to Bury and realised that the signals were old railway infrastructure.

 

[matchmaker]

I've often wondered at what point a railway becomes a tramway.
A couple of facts may be of interest.
At least glasgow and huddersfield tramways where gauged at 4ft 7 3/4 so railway wagons could be accommodated.
Tram wheel flanges often run on the bottom of the groove over points to minimise noise.
The points recently installed between network rail and Sheffield tramway have raised check rails precluding certain types of rail vehicles suck as snowplough fitted locks
May be more.
K

From Wikipedia "Glasgow's tramlines had a highly unusual track gauge of 4 ft 7 3⁄4 in (1,416 mm). This was to permit 4 ft 8 1⁄2 in (1,435 mm) standard gauge railway wagons to be operated over parts of the tram system (particularly in the Govan area) using their wheel flanges running in the slots of the tram tracks. This allowed the railway wagons to be drawn along tramway streets to access some shipyards. The shipyards provided their own small electric locomotives, running on the tramway power, to pull these wagons, principally loaded with steel for shipbuilding, from local railway freight yards."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Corporation_Tramways#Track_gauge

 

[Crossover]

The metrolink connection with network rail has been taken out at Manchester Victoria.

Think the wheel flanges on heavy rail are bigger requiring a deeper groove. I understand this is the problem in Weymouth and why cyclists keep suing Weymouth Council. Not withstanding the obvious differences betwren heavy rail and light rail which trams come under.

Come to think of it, youa re probably right. The street running sections of Metrolink (the tramway I am most familar with) aren't all that beep but, as you say, the ones on the Weymouth Quay branch are much deeper

There's also the much poorer visibility from train cabs especially where there's a gangway door at the front. A train driver would struggle to see pedestrians and wouldn't have the same braking ability on a street section of tramway.

Aside from the visibility, a train wouldn't get round some of the tight curves that are present on most tramways. I certainly don't think we will see a 66 negotiating Market Street anytime soon

I've been on it up to Bury and realised that the signals were old railway infrastructure.

I don't think the signals are necessarily old railway infrastructure as such, but it is using the block signalling similar to that of railways, albeit much of it has now been removed and replaced with Line of Sight signalling instead

 

[edwin_m]

I've been on it up to Bury and realised that the signals were old railway infrastructure.

They are railway-type colour lights signals but were installed new on the off-street sections on conversion to Metrolink Phase 1. Most of this network now runs on line of sight with white bar signals at junctions, but the railway signals are still in use the extremities of the Bury and Altrincham routes. These sections will go over to line of sight at some stage, but the Altrincham end is controlled by Network Rail so is much more complicated to change.

As suggested, tram wheel flanges are shallower and thinner than those of trains, so they only need a fairly small groove on street track. This means that trains would derail if they ran on any of today's street tramways, although as suggested Glasgow and a few others had a narrower track gauge that allowed wagons to run on their flange tips.

It also means that a tram would probably derail on a normal set of railway points. This is because the wheel is prevented from going the wrong way at a crossing by the back of the opposite wheel flange coming into contact with the check rail. As the flanges are thinner on trams this would not work. For anyone into model railways, this is also the reason "fine scale" wheels won't run over "coarse scale" points!

Metrolink trams and the Rotherham tram-train have a special wheel with a tread and flange similar to a tram wheel, so it fits on street track. However the inner part of the wheel above the top of the running rail is thicker at the back, so it can engage with a raised check rail and prevent derailment on heavy rail points. This is why the check rails are raised on the off-street parts of Metrolink and will be on all the points used by tram-trains on Network Rail in Rotherham.

 

[snowball]

but the Altrincham end is controlled by Network Rail so is much more complicated to change.

Especially as it includes two level crossings shared with heavy rail! (Each has a bidirectional NR track alongside a bidirectional Metrolink track through the same level crossing.)

 

[30907]

A Jackson's coach passes a steam locomotive, Altrincham by GMTS Collection, on Flickr

That's not tramway rail (where the groove is integral) to my eye but normal rail inset into the road. There's no overhead either.

 

[jopsuk]

The USA had, at one time, quite extensive hybrid "Interurban" streetcar systems- railways built to what was for North America a "light rail" standard with extensive in town street running

 

[edwin_m]

The USA had, at one time, quite extensive hybrid "Interurban" streetcar systems- railways built to what was for North America a "light rail" standard with extensive in town street running

I think interurbans would have had heavy rail flanges and rail grooves, as some of them handled freight cars to and from the "proper" railroads. I doubt anybody worried too much about cyclists etc - for such a litigious country it's quite surprising what is allowed in the States but not in Europe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not tramway rail (where the groove is integral) to my eye but normal rail inset into the road. There's no overhead either.

As per the caption on Flickr, this was a tramway down Moss Lane to carry coal wagons to the gasworks. As such I agree it is likely to have heavy had rail flangeways.

The building on the left in the view below may be the same one as in the photo, but just about everything else has changed.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3...4!1sjtoxZ38DI25rsIsM3t557Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Googling for old maps, I never realised Altrincham had a tramway before Metrolink. But it appears to have followed the A56 and never got to the east side of the railway.

 

[Crossover]

Especially as it includes two level crossings shared with heavy rail! (Each has a bidirectional NR track alongside a bidirectional Metrolink track through the same level crossing.)

Shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge - they've managed it in Nottingham on the line to Hucknall

 

[Greybeard33]

Metrolink trams and the Rotherham tram-train have a special wheel with a tread and flange similar to a tram wheel, so it fits on street track. However the inner part of the wheel above the top of the running rail is thicker at the back, so it can engage with a raised check rail and prevent derailment on heavy rail points. This is why the check rails are raised on the off-street parts of Metrolink and will be on all the points used by tram-trains on Network Rail in Rotherham.

Additionally, the grooved rails on all the Sheffield Supertram lines to be used by the tram-trains have had to be replaced, to accommodate the new tram-train wheel profile. The new rails have the 55G2 (41GP) profile, which has a wider and deeper groove than normal tramway rails as used on Metrolink and other British tramways.

It was fortunate that the original Supertram track was worn out and needed replacing anyway.