Silly question: Reverse Formation

[Sealink]

This is a very silly question (my brain isn't working today!)
LNER posted a few weeks an update to the 0755 INV KGX to say that "this train will run in reverse formation from NCL to KGX".
The route didn't appear to be different.
So what was happening with the train?

EDIT: Found an example from today!

16:00 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh due 20:25​

Facilities on the 16:00 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh due 20:25.
This train will run in reverse formation between London Kings Cross and Newcastle.

 

[JonathanH]

First class has been at the London end of services on most Intercity routes for a long time. A train on the East Coast Main Line is in reverse formation when first class is at the country end.

Nothing more complicated than that.

Of the Intercity routes into London, only the Midland has ever not really tried to keep first class at the London end in the last forty years.

 

[Sealink]

First class has been at the London end of services on most Intercity routes for a long time. A train on the East Coast is in reverse formation when first class is at the country end.

Nothing more complicated than that.

But why would it change en-route?

 

[DanNCL]

It just means the train is the opposite way round from normal. So on LNER that means coach A is at the London end of the train instead of the North end and vice versa with coach M.

As it’s only in reverse formation from Newcastle, that would suggest it’s ran via the High Level Bridge instead of the booked route across the King Edward Bridge. This move turns the train.

 

[JonathanH]

But why would it change en-route?

Newcastle is one of the few places on the East Coast line where a train can be switched to run in reverse formation. If there is a problem at one end of the train, it may be necessary to turn it - for example a failed windscreen wiper.

It can then go to the depot when it reaches London.

 

[zwk500]

Yep, reverse formation just measn the first class has been swapped round, usually because of a diversion requiring an unplanned reversal en-route. The specific train you've cited can get back in normal formation at Newcastle by using the Gateshead side and High Level Bridge to approach from the other direction, then the driver changing ends and first class is back where it should be.

 

[JonathanH]

Here it looks like the train is in reverse formation because of out of course running, and the opportunity is being taken to put that right at Newcastle.

 

[DanNCL]

Newcastle is one of the few places on the East Coast line where a train can be switched to run in reverse formation. If there is a problem at one end of the train, it may be necessary to turn it - for example a failed windscreen wiper.

Newcastle is the only place it can be done with an 801, and the only place it can be done with a 91+Mark 4 set without the assistance of a diesel loco. Bi-mode sets can do it in a few other locations, such as running from Leeds to Doncaster via Hambleton instead of Wakefield, or by leaving Edinburgh via Haymarket and the Suburban line instead of via Craigentinny.

 

[Sealink]

Thanks everyone!

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, I think the OP knew what reverse formation meant but the question was why only from Newcastle, and the use of the bridges loop answers that. I wonder what any slightly astute passengers make of it when it reverses at Newcastle!

 

[The North Briton]

This is a very silly question (my brain isn't working today!)
LNER posted a few weeks an update to the 0755 INV KGX to say that "this train will run in reverse formation from NCL to KGX".
The route didn't appear to be different.
So what was happening with the train?

EDIT: Found an example from today!

16:00 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh due 20:25​

Facilities on the 16:00 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh due 20:25.
This train will run in reverse formation between London Kings Cross and Newcastle.

They could make the messaging a bit less opaque and add that ‘First Class is now located at the front/rear (as far as ….)’, but they (LNER) don’t seem to bother these days.

 

[zwk500]

They could make the messaging a bit less opaque and add that ‘First Class is now located at the front/rear (as far as ….)’, but they (LNER) don’t seem to bother these days.

Avanti used to be fairly good about this.

 

[trainophile]

Hard luck if you've booked forward facing seats!

 

[Sealink]

Yes, I think the OP knew what reverse formation meant but the question was why only from Newcastle, and the use of the bridges loop answers that. I wonder what any slightly astute passengers make of it when it reverses at Newcastle!

You hit the nail on the head!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Hard luck if you've booked forward facing seats!

Didn't even think of that!

 

[6Gman]

Hard luck if you've booked forward facing seats!

But some nice rare track bashed!

 

[Pit_buzzer]

I once saw a GNER Kings Cross to Aberdeen service turned at Doncaster. It came under Balby Bridge and onto the Sheffield line at Bridge Jct and stopped alongside Hexthorpe Yard where it reversed and came into platform 8 via South Yorkshire Junction.
I wonder if such a move would still be allowed

 

[The Middle]

But some nice rare track bashed!

I wouldn't say that rare nowadays. There are plenty of TPE Liverpool services booked around the high level into/out of P1 at Newcastle

 

[Ken H]

when a train does a reversing move, as at Newcastle do the tell the passengers who may panic when the train leaves by the wrong end of the station

I was alarmed once when a train left Leeds to go to York when it exited by the west end of the station and took the Midland route via Woodlesford. It then went via Castleford to get to its expected route. But it was a Class 124 Trans Pennine DMU so no PA.

 

[AndrewE]

Avanti used to be fairly good about this.

Not any more. I think that more often than not there is no information about a reverse formation train (at Crewe anyway.)

 

[LYRobert]

My journey Banbury to Newcastle is, of course, on board Cross-Country. The train runs into Birmingham New St. from the south, then comes back out the same way, but diverging onto the Derby line. Reverse procedure coming home.

 

[edwin_m]

In principle an East Coast set can reverse in the London area by running from Finsbury Park down to Canonbury, across the North London Line and back up the west to north curve at Freight Terminal Junction. Obviously something of a faff, with four reversals if it is to start and finish at Kings Cross. This was mentioned in Modern Railways some years ago, and one reason to do it was that the depot facilities were laid out assuming the 91 was always at the country end of the set. I don't know if it's still permitted or whether 80x are allowed to do it.

ECML, WCML and GWML sets tend to stay the right way round because there are so few opportunities to reverse them. With all the shuffling around between Derby and Nottingham, the orientation of MML sets has always been pretty much random.

 

[zwk500]

In principle an East Coast set can reverse in the London area by running from Finsbury Park down to Canonbury, across the North London Line and back up the west to north curve at Freight Terminal Junction. Obviously something of a faff, with four reversals if it is to start and finish at Kings Cross. This was mentioned in Modern Railways some years ago, and one reason to do it was that the depot facilities were laid out assuming the 91 was always at the country end of the set. I don't know if it's still permitted or whether 80x are allowed to do it.

Interestingly, 91s are cleared under their own power on the Finsbury Park-Canonbury chord but on the North London Incline (Camden Road to Copenhagen Junction) they're listed as cleared for dead Haulage only. 80xs aren't in the Sectional Appendices published publicly on the NR website, so somebody internal will have to say on that.

ECML, WCML and GWML sets tend to stay the right way round because there are so few opportunities to reverse them. With all the shuffling around between Derby and Nottingham, the orientation of MML sets has always been pretty much random.

GWML sets can end up the wrong way round if diversions take place, as places like Worcester, Gloucester and Bristol have a habit of spinning sets. Apparently GW control were quite good at taking opportunities provided by the many triangular layouts on their network to make sure the sets found themselves the proper way round reasonable quickly.
The ECML and WCML as you say are harder, especially the limited ECML electrification - WCML sets could quite often end up the wrong way round if there were problems in the Birmingham area.

 

[Facing Back]

Interestingly, 91s are cleared under their own power on the Finsbury Park-Canonbury chord but on the North London Incline (Camden Road to Copenhagen Junction) they're listed as cleared for dead Haulage only. 80xs aren't in the Sectional Appendices published publicly on the NR website, so somebody internal will have to say on that.

can I ask what dead haulage means?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Avanti used to be fairly good about this.

The Avanti situation probably isn't helped by the Carstairs block causing services to/from Glasgow to need to reverse at Midcalder Junction.

Also recently I seem to remember there being a signalling problem between Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street on the usual route via Sandwell etc. Which caused trains running Wolverhampton to Birmingham via Bescot and entering New Street via Perry Bar, Aston and Proof House Junction, before reversing at New Street towards London Euston.

 

[Magdalia]

Of the Intercity routes into London, only the Midland has ever not really tried to keep first class at the London end in the last forty years.

It isn't Inter City, but class 387s on the GN usually run with First Class at the country end.

The Midland used to struggle when it had lots of timetabled Nottingham reversals.

 

[yorkie]

when a train does a reversing move, as at Newcastle do the tell the passengers who may panic when the train leaves by the wrong end of the station

I was alarmed once when a train left Leeds to go to York when it exited by the west end of the station and took the Midland route via Woodlesford. It then went via Castleford to get to its expected route. But it was a Class 124 Trans Pennine DMU so no PA.

It's not "wrong"; regulars will know of the different routes, while people unfamiliar won't be concerned with a reversal as they are not uncommon throughout the network and are generally unannounced. I don't think I've ever heard a reversal announced for Bradford Interchange for example.

I guess people who are semi-regular but only ever gone the most common route might erroneously think there is only route, but that's just a case of making incorrect assumptions.

 

[zwk500]

can I ask what dead haulage means?

Electric locomotives are cleared to travel over the route but must lower the pantograph and be hauled by another locomotive 'dead in tow'. Most often seen for electric stock over non-electrified track (for obvious reasons) but also can be authorised if there are current draw issues or if a particular section of route carries a high risk of stopping somewhere the electric train could not restart from, like an awkwardly placed neutral section near a signal.

 

[D1537]

Not any more. I think that more often than not there is no information about a reverse formation train (at Crewe anyway.)

Indeed. Last year I joined a Pendolino at Euston that was the wrong way round and had walked half way down the platform before realising I had walked past my coach - no information on the screens. Interestingly I saw the same set the correct way round the very next day so I assume it must have been flipped round using the Perry Barr trick mentioned above.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

can I ask what dead haulage means?

I'm the case of Mk4 sets, it means they're passed for the route being towed by a diesel locomotive (coupled to the 'pointy' end of the DVT) but not when running under electric power from the class 91 loco.

 

[The exile]

They could make the messaging a bit less opaque and add that ‘First Class is now located at the front/rear (as far as ….)’, but they (LNER) don’t seem to bother these days.

Which of course would only be half the story - not to mention the fact that most people who couldn’t work out what “reverse formation” meant wouldn’t be able to work out which was “the London end”.