Signals to be removed from ECML / GWML

[Haydn1971]

Talked about previously I'm sure, but this popped into my mailbox today

http://www.ciht.org.uk/en/media-centre/news.cfm/Railway-Signals-To-Be-Removed-On-UK-Network

Signals to be removed on East Coast Mainline within six years

Trackside signals are to be phased out on the UK’s railways with trains controlled wirelessly from 12 regional control centres, Network Rail revealed last week. The operator has begun trials in Hertfordshire of a European Train Control System which removes the need for ‘traffic light’ signals and speed signs alongside the track. In future drivers will be informed of the maximum permitted speed and whether they can proceed using information inside their cab.

A pilot study three years ago on the Cambrian line in mid Wales proved that the technology can increase the number of trains that can run along a stretch of track. Signals are set to be removed on the East Coast Mainline between London King’s Cross and Doncaster within six years and on the Great Western Railway from Paddington to Bristol within nine years.

Network Rail’s head of operating strategy Simon Whitehorn said: “Rail travel is more popular than ever and by the end of 2019 there will be 225M more passenger journeys each year. We have to look at new and innovative technology to allow more trains to use the railways.”...

Which kinda begs the question - how's this going to happen with numerous old trains also using the line ? Does this mean that 100's of older trains that run on parts of these routes, from pacers to sprinters to voyagers will be equipped with ETCS gear to ensure interoperability with the 800 fleet ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Would this increase the chance of >125mph speeds? As wasn't the reason normal cited for capable trains not being allowed faster due to the visibility of signals at those speeds?

 

[starrymarkb]

Pretty much. I understand a lot of recent builds have provision for the kit to be fitted. but yes there will be stock converted, much as the continent has been doing.

I believe initially ECTS will be overlaid with lineside signals and speeds (possibly in km/h) remaining. Equipped trains will use the incab displays - unfitted stock will use signals

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pretty much. I understand a lot of recent builds have provision for the kit to be fitted. but yes there will be stock converted, much as the continent has been doing.
I believe initially ECTS will be overlaid with lineside signals and speeds (possibly in km/h) remaining. Equipped trains will use the incab displays - unfitted stock will use signals

GW is initially being overlaid by ETCS, retaining the current signalling so no need to convert all the stock.
But ECML South (of Doncaster) is going straight to ETCS so ALL cabs will have to be fitted before they switch the new signalling on.
That's one of the reasons/benefits of class 700/800 operation, also now class 313 replacement.
NR will pay for "first in class" development and fitment, but the TOCs then have to pay for replication across the fleet.

 

[CdBrux]

Will this help reduce incidents of lineside wire theft as there will be nothing, or less, remaining to steal?

 

[carriageline]

There will still be cables lineside, just as many, as if it is like the HS1 system, there will be "balises" which act as an aerial to pass on the signal information at each marker post. You also have all the cabling for track circuits/axle counters and point machines too



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[carriageline]

Can't edit my post, new one below

There will still be cables lineside. Probably just as man as it uses the same equipment, but instead of traditional signals there will be "balises" which act as an aerial to pass on the signal information at each marker post. You also have all the cabling for track circuits/axle counters and point machines too






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[jopsuk]

for the ECML at least the test train (being used on the development stretch of the Hertford loop) is a 313. Fully converted by NR, in full yellow livery.

 

[455driver]

This bit-

A pilot study three years ago on the Cambrian line in mid Wales proved that the technology can increase the number of trains that can run along a stretch of track.

Made me laugh!

 

[westv]

I assume this is linked to the end of the old "block" system and the adoption of a newer (better?) system of variable separation which should allow more trains on the line at any one time.

 

[Railsigns]

There will still be cables lineside. Probably just as man as it uses the same equipment, but instead of traditional signals there will be "balises" which act as an aerial to pass on the signal information at each marker post. You also have all the cabling for track circuits/axle counters and point machines too

There aren't any cables to the balises (on ERTMS level 2). The balises only serve as position markers and transmit the same data to every train that passes. Movement authorities are transmitted to trains by GSM-R radio.

On HS1, movement authorities are transmitted via coded track circuits.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume this is linked to the end of the old "block" system and the adoption of a newer (better?) system of variable separation which should allow more trains on the line at any one time.

ERTMS level 2 (as used on the Cambrian) is a fixed block system, as was the system it replaced. Whether the new system provides better capacity than the old depends on the length of the blocks, which is a decision to be made at the design stage.

 

[Rapidash]

Ah, I see when they say GWML they mean 'As far as Bristol'. Even the bloomin' M5 just about reaches Exeter.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I was watching a driver's eye view dvd the other day, it showed a box in the cab showing the current speed limit, was that the ECTS in use?

How much of an affect once ECTS is in full use nationwide will it have on the route knowledge aspect of any new driver to the industry?

 

[Llanigraham]

This bit-


Made me laugh!

Laugh all you like, but it is true and it can be done.

 

[The Planner]

Only in certain places though? There are block markers at Westbury which could be of use but the ones at Llanidloes Road, Weig Lane and Rhlwlas Hall don't really unlock anything?

 

[455driver]

Laugh all you like, but it is true and it can be done.

I am not saying it cant be done!
What I am saying (delicately) is that it doesnt work very well!

 

[asylumxl]

I am not saying it cant be done!
What I am saying (delicately) is that it doesnt work very well!

Meanwhile, in Europe...

 

[455driver]

Meanwhile, in Europe...

Where they spent more than 50p on the system!

 

[causton]

I was watching a driver's eye view dvd the other day, it showed a box in the cab showing the current speed limit, was that the ECTS in use?

How much of an affect once ECTS is in full use nationwide will it have on the route knowledge aspect of any new driver to the industry?

Was it a FGW route? If so, then no, that is ATP which is a less advanced version that advises the driver what speed they need to go... and by advises, it gives you an emergency brake if you don't go at that speed!

Edit: linky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Train_Protection

 

[CockneySparrow]

Will this help reduce incidents of lineside wire theft as there will be nothing, or less, remaining to steal?

no, the ECML will still have the electric overhead cables to steal

 

[Bald Rick]

no, the ECML will still have the electric overhead cables to steal

Which are mostly aluminium (thus worth approx a tenth of the value of copper for a given volume) and/or have 25kV in them (thus likely to cause anyone touching them to hand in their pail)

 

[PermitToTravel]

GW is initially being overlaid by ETCS, retaining the current signalling so no need to convert all the stock.
But ECML South (of Doncaster) is going straight to ETCS so ALL cabs will have to be fitted before they switch the new signalling on.
That's one of the reasons/benefits of class 700/800 operation, also now class 313 replacement.
NR will pay for "first in class" development and fitment, but the TOCs then have to pay for replication across the fleet.

I wonder if they'll overlay ETCS on the semaphore signals around Greenford

 

[LowLevel]

Out of interest, how do guards dispatch their trains in the top left (and middle) of Wales? Is there some kind of off indicator?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Was it a FGW route? If so, then no, that is ATP which is a less advanced version that advises the driver what speed they need to go... and by advises, it gives you an emergency brake if you don't go at that speed!

Edit: linky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Train_Protection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPeqv2uT6Yc#t=81

About 1:20 in that vid, I'm sure in one scene in the whole dvd it showed info about an upcoming change of speed limit

EDIT: I think this is the manufacturer of the system: http://www.ttgtransportationtechnology.com/products/energymiser.html

 

[Chris125]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPeqv2uT6Yc#t=81

About 1:20 in that vid, I'm sure in one scene in the whole dvd it showed info about an upcoming change of speed limit

That's the Driver Advisory System, which as it's name suggests "provides drivers with real-time route information on train running times allowing them to monitor train performance and reliability. It offers guidance on train speeds to help drivers keep services to timetable while ensuring greater fuel efficiency and progressive driving techniques"

Chris

 

[Aictos]

Out of interest, how do guards dispatch their trains in the top left (and middle) of Wales? Is there some kind of off indicator?

I like to know how dispatchers are meant to know it's safe to start dispatch process if there's no visible signals?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I like to know how dispatchers are meant to know it's safe to start dispatch process if there's no visible signals?

There'll probably be some sort of indicator light on each platform (or one each end for a bidirectional line) to indicate to the dispatcher when to start the dispatch process.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The Jubilee line, which no longer has visible signals, now has light indications for its "dispatchers" (despite the fact that they can't actually dispatch, only suggest to the driver when to go)

 

[Railsigns]

I like to know how dispatchers are meant to know it's safe to start dispatch process if there's no visible signals?

On the Cambrian line, the driver buzzes the guard to advise him or her that a movement authority has been received (i.e. the same procedure as when the line was worked by RETB).

It is recognised that "off" indicators will still be needed at some stations when ERTMS is rolled out onto other routes.

 

[455driver]

That's the Driver Advisory System, which as it's name suggests "provides drivers with real-time route information on train running times allowing them to monitor train performance and reliability. It offers guidance on train speeds to help drivers keep services to timetable while ensuring greater fuel efficiency and progressive driving techniques"

Chris

Which most drivers ignore.