Signalling systems confusing trains

[Broken70]

Evening, Feel free to move if this is in the wrong place etc.

This evening I'm travelling on 1B26 the 1648 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield. After awaiting train crew we finally departed Manchester Piccadilly P3 at 1700. Behind us on the same platform was 2E73 the 1700 Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds stopper. Both trains are 3 car Class 185s operated by TPE.

Our train stopped in platform 3 at Stalybridge so I checked Open train times to see why and noticed 2E73 displayed in the berth we were and 1B26 approaching from behind on the greens with the road into Platform 4 the screens showing no departures on 4. Was a little confused given I was sat on 1B26.

The real 2E73 then arrived in the platform (4) across the track and unlocked the doors, at least with our unit remaining locked I knew I was on the right train, the real 2E73 departed on the clear greens and we remained a while. A few minutes later on open train times the headcodes swapped over and we continued. I assume our driver contacted the signaller to ask about the delay after 4 or so minutes and the situation was uncovered. The real 2E73 appears to have had an extended dwell at Mossley however it isn't reflected in RTT as our report times seem to have swapped path.

This has now however led to us on 1B26 non stop following stopping 2E73 right down to Huddersfield. We are currently 30 down at the moment and loosing time.

My question is what would cause such a situation. Would it be the ARS system or an human error. Not something I've experienced knowingly in all my years travelling the railway.

Thanks

 

[TSG]

Evening, Feel free to move if this is in the wrong place etc.

This evening I'm travelling on 1B26 the 1648 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield. After awaiting train crew we finally departed Manchester Piccadilly P3 at 1700. Behind us on the same platform was 2E73 the 1700 Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds stopper. Both trains are 3 car Class 185s operated by TPE.

Our train stopped in platform at Stalybridge so I checked Open train times to see why and noticed 2E73 displayed in the berth we were and 1B26 approaching from behind on the greens. Was a little confused given I was sat on 1B26.

The real 2E73 then arrived in the platform across the track and unlocked the doors, at least with our unit remaining locked I knew I was on the right train, the real 2E73 departed on the clear greens and we remained a while. A few minutes later on open train times the headcodes swapped over and we continued. I assume our driver contacted the signaller to ask about the delay after 4 or so minutes and the situation was uncovered.

This has now however led to us on 1B26 non stop following stopping 2E73 right down to Huddersfield.

My question is what would cause such a situation. Would it be the ARS system or an human error.

If the headcode in the TD is wrong the ARS has no way of knowing that. If left to it's own devices, it will act on the basis of that incorrect description. A signaller could also be forgiven for being confused by it where routes are being set manually. Probably either a signaller/shunter has manually put the wrong description(s) in at some point on the journey, or there's been a cock up with the data in an Automatic Code Insertion machine somewhere on the system (this is supposed to change the description of a terminating train into the description of the out going service that it will form).

 

[Broken70]

If the headcode in the TD is wrong the ARS has no way of knowing that. If left to it's own devices, it will act on the basis of that incorrect description. A signaller could also be forgiven for being confused by it where routes are being set manually. Probably either a signaller/shunter has manually put the wrong description(s) in at some point on the journey, or there's been a cock up with the data in an Automatic Code Insertion machine somewhere on the system (this is supposed to change the description of a terminating train into the description of the out going service that it will form).

Thank you for the reply, that's along the lines of what I was thinking could have led to such an occurance. Ovcoruse to the signaller sat on the panel seeing the headcode they will act accordingly and that's what happened. I guess once the mistake or error is made its a case of relaying on the Swiss cheese model to uncover it hopefully before any wrong routing occurs.

 

[Trothy]

Evening, Feel free to move if this is in the wrong place etc.

This evening I'm travelling on 1B26 the 1648 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield. After awaiting train crew we finally departed Manchester Piccadilly P3 at 1700. Behind us on the same platform was 2E73 the 1700 Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds stopper. Both trains are 3 car Class 185s operated by TPE.

Our train stopped in platform 3 at Stalybridge so I checked Open train times to see why and noticed 2E73 displayed in the berth we were and 1B26 approaching from behind on the greens with the road into Platform 4 the screens showing no departures on 4. Was a little confused given I was sat on 1B26.

The real 2E73 then arrived in the platform (4) across the track and unlocked the doors, at least with our unit remaining locked I knew I was on the right train, the real 2E73 departed on the clear greens and we remained a while. A few minutes later on open train times the headcodes swapped over and we continued. I assume our driver contacted the signaller to ask about the delay after 4 or so minutes and the situation was uncovered. The real 2E73 appears to have had an extended dwell at Mossley however it isn't reflected in RTT as our report times seem to have swapped path.

This has now however led to us on 1B26 non stop following stopping 2E73 right down to Huddersfield. We are currently 30 down at the moment and loosing time.

My question is what would cause such a situation. Would it be the ARS system or an human error. Not something I've experienced knowingly in all my years travelling the railway.

Thanks

Are you sure you'd didn't leave from Platform 1 at Piccadilly?

Both trains were stacked at Piccadilly on Platform 1 but it seems they left with the incorrect headcodes (2E73 shown as leaving Piccadilly first), and I assume this was then discovered at Stalybridge but not until the signaller tried to regulate what he thought was 1B26 past.

Any other day of the week this would have been discovered earlier as the train would have been wrong routed at Ardwick.

Usually a driver will struggle to register the incorrect headcode on GSMR but as they were both in the same platform at Piccadilly they could have done this without issue.

 

[Geeves]

I had a quick look on the replay and it seems the whole issue started back at Piccadilly with your own train having the stoppers headcode and the stopper being incorrectly entered into the system as 1B26! Like you say it seems the problem was only noticed after the incorrectly labeled stopper was given the road ahead of yours at Staly, an innocent mistake by ARS or human on the panel

Throthy just beat me to it.

 

[Broken70]

In reply to Throthy yes sorry we did depart P1 at Piccadilly, both trains, my mistake.

The more I think about it everyone did the job correctly after the mistake having been made. Thankfully picked up without too much of a fuss. We ended up about 30L into Huddersfield and 20L into Sheffield on 1B26 and in all honesty it's not something regulars on the route are suprised by.

Thanks for the replies, everyday is a school day as they say and this one got my interest so pleased to have learnt a little here.

 

[Fishnchipsrule]

Had this on the way home to Hadfield once and the signalling tried to route us into Ardwick and the other 323 that left after us was routed how we should have been and came to a stop along side us as both us and the ECS questioned routing.

 

[Geeves]

It happens more often than you think but is usually noticed. One issue ARS really doesn't like is if someone at one of the smaller boxes enters the Train with 0 instead of O, EG 2028 instead of 2O28 I was sure in the they didn't use the letter O to avoid that but it seems to have made a resurgence over the last few years

 

[edwin_m]

Under traditional British signalling there is no way of positively identifying a train. Its description is entered by a computer at the start of its journey based on the timetable, manually if there is some change to the timetable, or manually by the last signaller in an area with no train describer system. That system then moves the description along based on when the train is detected to pass each signal.

Apparently under ETCS systems the train ID set up by the driver is communicated into the system so this sort of error can't happen, in theory at least.

 

[Tomnick]

It happens more often than you think but is usually noticed. One issue ARS really doesn't like is if someone at one of the smaller boxes enters the Train with 0 instead of O, EG 2028 instead of 2O28 I was sure in the they didn't use the letter O to avoid that but it seems to have made a resurgence over the last few years

'O' is, by long-standing convention, generally used to indicate an inter-regional train to the former Southern Region so it definitely isn't and hasn't been avoided! (It's often used differently for class 2s where there's little risk of confusion or overlap)

 

[Gaelan]

It happens more often than you think but is usually noticed. One issue ARS really doesn't like is if someone at one of the smaller boxes enters the Train with 0 instead of O, EG 2028 instead of 2O28 I was sure in the they didn't use the letter O to avoid that but it seems to have made a resurgence over the last few years

It's also used by Eurostars, who use O and I, which can be changed to 0 or 1 to form a continental-style 4-digit train number.

 

[357]

Had it myself where a signaller started a conversation my moaning at me for SGing him when I was early as soon as I picked up the phone, only when I kept it professional and stated the signal I was standing at and my headcode did we conclude a shunter had interposed me with the wrong headcode when leaving the depot.

It happens sometimes. Perhaps your train was split in the platform and someone interposed the headcodes the wrong way round, or there was a last minute set swap.

 

[Rail Quest]

Evening, Feel free to move if this is in the wrong place etc.

This evening I'm travelling on 1B26 the 1648 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield. After awaiting train crew we finally departed Manchester Piccadilly P3 at 1700. Behind us on the same platform was 2E73 the 1700 Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds stopper. Both trains are 3 car Class 185s operated by TPE.

Our train stopped in platform 3 at Stalybridge so I checked Open train times to see why and noticed 2E73 displayed in the berth we were and 1B26 approaching from behind on the greens with the road into Platform 4 the screens showing no departures on 4. Was a little confused given I was sat on 1B26.

The real 2E73 then arrived in the platform (4) across the track and unlocked the doors, at least with our unit remaining locked I knew I was on the right train, the real 2E73 departed on the clear greens and we remained a while. A few minutes later on open train times the headcodes swapped over and we continued. I assume our driver contacted the signaller to ask about the delay after 4 or so minutes and the situation was uncovered. The real 2E73 appears to have had an extended dwell at Mossley however it isn't reflected in RTT as our report times seem to have swapped path.

This has now however led to us on 1B26 non stop following stopping 2E73 right down to Huddersfield. We are currently 30 down at the moment and loosing time.

My question is what would cause such a situation. Would it be the ARS system or an human error. Not something I've experienced knowingly in all my years travelling the railway.

Thanks

Given the practice of train stacking a Piccadilly, I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often for a range of lines. Seems that the practice quite rightly confuses signallers and the signalling systems just as much as it throws off the general public. If only Manchester had a good termini station... clearly too much to ask for a non-London city

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Apparently under ETCS systems the train ID set up by the driver is communicated into the system so this sort of error can't happen, in theory at least.

True. although
a) That on works when communicating over radio in Level 2
b) The rest of Europe uses numerical train IDs and ETCS cannot handle UK-style alphanumeric headcodes

 

[Gaelan]

b) The rest of Europe uses numerical train IDs and ETCS cannot handle UK-style alphanumeric headcodes

Presumably the solution here is to encode the headcode into a numeric form for the underlying protocol (eg replace the letter with two digits from 01 to 26; more efficient schemes are available), then have the driver- and signaller- facing equipment convert it to the traditional UK style for display.

 

[Geeves]

'O' is, by long-standing convention, generally used to indicate an inter-regional train to the former Southern Region so it definitely isn't and hasn't been avoided! (It's often used differently for class 2s where there's little risk of confusion or overlap)

I didn't know that Tom! It seemed to arrive randomly up here in the wild north and confuse many of the smaller boxes on the way into Manchester. It really upsets everything that needs the correct headcode to function!

 

[snowball]

The code for inter-regional trains was/is
S = destination in Scottish Region
M = London Midland Region
E = Eastern Region
V = Western Region (presumably roller blinds didn't do W?)
O = Southern Region (presumably because S was taken, so use second letter).

I'm not sure how it catered for the earlier North Eastern region or the later Anglia Region.

 

[IanXC]

It happens sometimes. Perhaps your train was split in the platform and someone interposed the headcodes the wrong way round, or there was a last minute set swap.

Another classic way this problem occurs is that planners muddle up which unit is leading and trailing when they arrive in a station to split and form two separate services.

The code for inter-regional trains was/is
S = destination in Scottish Region
M = London Midland Region
E = Eastern Region
V = Western Region (presumably roller blinds didn't do W?)
O = Southern Region (presumably because S was taken, so use second letter).

I'm not sure how it catered for the earlier North Eastern region or the later Anglia Region.

N = North Eastern Region
L = Anglia Region

(But not both at the same time!)

 

[TurboMan]

b) The rest of Europe uses numerical train IDs and ETCS cannot handle UK-style alphanumeric headcodes

I'm not sure what you mean by that, given that during SoM the train running number is entered using the normal 4-digit alphanumeric headcode plus the 3-digit location code (e.g. 1A34 567).

 

[Sheridan]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, given that during SoM the train running number is entered using the normal 4-digit alphanumeric headcode plus the 3-digit location code (e.g. 1A34 567).

What is SoM please?

 

[TurboMan]

What is SoM please?

Start of Mission. It's the procedure the driver follows to set up an ETCS-fitted train for a movement, by entering various data into the driver-machine interface (DMI), such as driver ID number, headcode, train length etc.

 

[Sheridan]

Start of Mission. It's the procedure the driver follows to set up an ETCS-fitted train for a movement, by entering various data into the driver-machine interface (DMI), such as driver ID number, headcode, train length etc.

Ah right, thank you. I believe on older systems the equivalent is a 5-digit code followed by the 3-digit signal number, not the actual head code.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, given that during SoM the train running number is entered using the normal 4-digit alphanumeric headcode plus the 3-digit location code (e.g. 1A34 567).

Thanks for explaining how it works in practice.
The underlying ETCS protocol only supports numeric digits. Presumably as suggested above, Network Rail has some internal standard which describes how to represent a UK headcode. There are 8 digits available, so I guess with 7 characters and only one letter they can use two digits to represent the letter, which would work fine.

 

[Annetts key]

About V for Western Region, WR electromechanical TD systems only had ten letters available for the second digit (those being ZXVOMEFCBA), and that did not include W. More info in this topic.

 

[68000]

Thanks for explaining how it works in practice.
The underlying ETCS protocol only supports numeric digits. Presumably as suggested above, Network Rail has some internal standard which describes how to represent a UK headcode. There are 8 digits available, so I guess with 7 characters and only one letter they can use two digits to represent the letter, which would work fine.

This is the same for GSM-R. The trial version of GSM-R in Scotland used 5 digit number for the TRN and printed them onto the drivers diagram. The later version of the Siemens cab radio had the conversion in software and the driver entered the alpha numeric headcode