Signalling problems Guildford/ Reading / Waterloo 18/07 lines

[NSEWonderer]

I made 41 attempts to call resource manager recently when all was going wrong.

if they won't answer and tell me what is happening I shall sit and wait

Agreed, had the same when it all went to pot near staines due to points issues.

 

[AlexNL]

What are the limits of the area controlled by Basingstoke ROC, and how much of it went down yesterday? When I search for information about what Basingstoke ROC controls, information is hard to find.

 

[NSEWonderer]

What are the limits of the area controlled by Basingstoke ROC, and how much of it went down yesterday? When I search for information about what Basingstoke ROC controls, information is hard to find.

Basingstoke ROC had an issue with interlocking yesterday that caused 3 Crucial panels to go out of comms, Staines, Strawberry Hill and Ascot which knocks out the whole of Windsor side an pretty much most of the Reading route up to Winnersh.

 

[Bigfoot]

Basingstoke ROC had an issue with interlocking yesterday that caused 3 Crucial panels to go out of comms, Staines, Strawberry Hill and Ascot which knocks out the whole of Windsor side an pretty much most of the Reading route up to Winnersh.

Wokingham panel also failed at B-ROC.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Wokingham panel also failed at B-ROC.

Ah didn't even realise, explains the train stuck between Earley and Winnersh Triangle yesterday night then.

 

[Bigfoot]

Ah didn't even realise, explains the train stuck between Earley and Winnersh Triangle yesterday night then.

T'was the whole lot!

 

[pompeyfan]

I made 41 attempts to call resource manager recently when all was going wrong.

if they won't answer and tell me what is happening I shall sit and wait

I think you’re possibly being a bit defensive.

Clearly you’re not one of the ones that take advantage of the situation, as you’re being proactive and attempting to contact the resource manager, so my original comment doesn’t apply to you (or many of your colleagues). That said as a member of train crew I’m sure you’ve probably seen a handful of colleagues that do the opposite and switch off their phones etc.

Out of curiosity do you use things like open train maps to keep an eye on your trains?

 

[Falcon1200]

f they won't answer and tell me what is happening

More likely can't answer rather than won't; When major issues such as these occur affecting a huge number of trains (and Traincrew) Control is utterly overwhelmed. Not only will some calls go unanswered, meal breaks and cuppas fall by the wayside too.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I think you’re possibly being a bit defensive.

Clearly you’re not one of the ones that take advantage of the situation, as you’re being proactive and attempting to contact the resource manager, so my original comment doesn’t apply to you (or many of your colleagues). That said as a member of train crew I’m sure you’ve probably seen a handful of colleagues that do the opposite and switch off their phones etc.

Out of curiosity do you use things like open train maps to keep an eye on your trains?

Signalmaps often gets used or tracksy by others. Old school will use the boards or check the on platform screens(that show headcodes of trains inbound and what they'll become outbound, when its working), also have similar system in the Messrooms.

 

[Goldfish62]

And this train formed the first service from Reading this morning, 2C10. Presumably an unplanned Saturday 701.

Yes, it did indeed run that service.

 

[43066]

I think you’re possibly being a bit defensive.

Clearly you’re not one of the ones that take advantage of the situation, as you’re being proactive and attempting to contact the resource manager, so my original comment doesn’t apply to you (or many of your colleagues). That said as a member of train crew I’m sure you’ve probably seen a handful of colleagues that do the opposite and switch off their phones etc.

Out of curiosity do you use things like open train maps to keep an eye on your trains?

In my experience people do that when they’ve tried to be proactive in the past and then found themselves being snapped at, or blamed for taking the decision themselves to go somewhere else so that they’re no longer where resources expect them to be. Hence “playing dumb” can be the correct thing to do as you won’t get moaned at for it.

 

[JGurney]

SWR don't help themselves with unclear communications

Quite! Not just SWR.

Two days ago we arrived in St Pancras on a Eurostar and found there were no SWR trains running to Fulwell where we were staying with friends, nor to anywhere nearby, so we got the underground and a bus.

At approx 9:00 yesterday NRE and SWR apps were showing a normal service from Fulwell.

At approx 12:00 the SWR app was showing deps from Fulwell towards Waterloo as being at normal times but diverted via Twickenham, and the NRE app was showing all services through Fulwell as "delayed". RTT was showing only planned times with no real time data, but that is understandable as they unofficial and are reliant upon data provided from official sources which presumably were not functioning.

Despairing of getting accurate info on trains from Fulwell we got a bus to Twickenham and got one of the few services from there which were not labelled 'cancelled' or 'delayed'.

A separate problem struck when we got to Northallerton. The 18:05 TP to Redcar ran late and was terminated early at Middlesbrough. The following Northern service to Saltburn arrived late and people boarded, but then we were told this train was also being taken out of service, as there was a fault with a rear door and the guard was not allowed to dispatch from the front, so we got off again. The next Redcar train was another TP which also ran late.

We had more disruption getting from St Pancras to Fulwell two days ago and from Fulwell to Redcar yesterday that we had getting from Vienna to St Pancras earlier.

 

[godfreycomplex]

What are the limits of the area controlled by Basingstoke ROC, and how much of it went down yesterday? When I search for information about what Basingstoke ROC controls, information is hard to find.

(Very roughly) Richmond to Earley, and most of the sticky off bits from that.

The area formerly controlled by Feltham ASC & Wokingham SB, if that helps you at all

 

[londonmidland]

Signalling has gone down again at Waterloo. Unable to set routes from platforms 1 to 14 here. It’s a repeat issue as per what happened on Saturday.

 

[Couru]

Signalling has gone down again at Waterloo. Unable to set routes from platforms 1 to 14 here. It’s a repeat issue as per what happened on Saturday.

And it's another Do Not Travel, only on a workday rather than a weekend. A bit embarrassing for all involved.

 

[SWT_USER]

Different fault or not fixed properly last time?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Same fault sadly as on Saturday. Seems to be quite elusive. 05:30 Weymouth is still sitting cushy at Waterloo.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And it's another Do Not Travel, only on a workday rather than a weekend. A bit embarrassing for all involved.

Thing is these sort of issues happen from time to time its how the railway responds to them that matters and Do Not Travel cannot be the deafult answer. The main line could be terminated short at C.Jcn or Wimbledon but they don't in fact not even running upto Woking by the looks of it at 0900. They have Windsor side then divert into there and thin the Windsor side services to free up some platforms but they don't. GBR needs to get a grip of this if its to stand for anything.

 

[NSEWonderer]

1-14 is slowly coming back to life as trains are starting to depart more regularly now.

 

[wastedlife]

There is a Meet the Manager today at Waterloo. That will be fun.
"Very few passengers coming to see us, they must all be very happy with the service."

If I didn't know SWR better, I would think they had planned this around the MtM event - although I do think it being Monday today is not coincidental. However, associating SWR with the word "planning" is tenuous at best.

 

[markle]

As someone who has suffered through several "do not travel" days over the years, and spent time working on operational resilience matters in other industries, I'm left wondering what (if any) contingency planning is done by SWR?

An inability to run services into Waterloo is a fairly foreseeable scenario that has actually happened several times over the past year.

I would have expected SWR to have a contingency plan in place that would allow services to run where feasible - e.g. continuing to run 'main line' services, but terminating at Woking or Basingstoke, with Woking / Guildford stoppers terminating at Surbiton. The signalling is all there to enable this. And clear planning, well understood by railway staff, reduces the risk of resource managers / train service controllers being "overwhelmed" (per comments above).

Why isn't this done? Do SWR simply see no value in this sort of planning?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As someone who has suffered through several "do not travel" days over the years, and spent time working on operational resilience matters in other industries, I'm left wondering what (if any) contingency planning is done by SWR?

An inability to run services into Waterloo is a fairly foreseeable scenario that has actually happened several times over the past year.

I would have expected SWR to have a contingency plan in place that would allow services to run where feasible - e.g. continuing to run 'main line' services, but terminating at Woking or Basingstoke, with Woking / Guildford stoppers terminating at Surbiton. The signalling is all there to enable this. And clear planning, well understood by railway staff, reduces the risk of resource managers / train service controllers being "overwhelmed" (per comments above).

Why isn't this done? Do SWR simply see no value in this sort of planning?

Indeed or even Clapham Jcn where you can run into the sidings from P7 then change ends and comeback into P9 at least there are then services to Victoria. However do Not Travel has become the default response for many operators now and GBR should be given the task of ensuring this is used as a last resort not the default option.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

As someone who has suffered through several "do not travel" days over the years, and spent time working on operational resilience matters in other industries, I'm left wondering what (if any) contingency planning is done by SWR?

An inability to run services into Waterloo is a fairly foreseeable scenario that has actually happened several times over the past year.

I would have expected SWR to have a contingency plan in place that would allow services to run where feasible - e.g. continuing to run 'main line' services, but terminating at Woking or Basingstoke, with Woking / Guildford stoppers terminating at Surbiton. The signalling is all there to enable this. And clear planning, well understood by railway staff, reduces the risk of resource managers / train service controllers being "overwhelmed" (per comments above).

Why isn't this done? Do SWR simply see no value in this sort of planning?

There is contingency planning done but this is undone by optimised rostering which means trains coming up the stock will do one thing the driver another and the guard another

It’s not just SWR that do this it’s become a popular way amongst TOC’s and the DfT to reduce costs and it feels like it’s a calculated gamble that the cost of this type of incident or paying for customers taxis when it all goes wrong is less than the cost of full crew working. Whether it is or not who knows

 

[markle]

There is contingency planning done but this is undone by optimised rostering which means trains coming up the stock will do one thing the driver another and the guard another

It’s not just SWR that do this it’s become a popular way amongst TOC’s and the DfT to reduce costs and it feels like it’s a calculated gamble that the cost of this type of incident or paying for customers taxis when it all goes wrong is less than the cost of full crew working. Whether it is or not who knows

Who pays for taxis if there's a signalling failure? SWR or Network Rail?

If the latter (which I suspect it may be), then I suspect someone's taken the view that if SWR doesn't have to pay, it's not worth taking actions to reduce the risk of it happening.

It's the sort of misaligned incentive structure one would hope nationalisation actually solves...

 

[The Planner]

Who pays for taxis if there's a signalling failure? SWR or Network Rail?

If the latter (which I suspect it may be), then I suspect someone's taken the view that if SWR doesn't have to pay, it's not worth taking actions to reduce the risk of it happening.

It's the sort of misaligned incentive structure one would hope nationalisation actually solves...

The cost of taxis in the overall Schedule 8 payments for this are a miniscule rounding error.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Does Sch 8 still apply following nationalisation of SWR? Do payments under it now serve any purpose? It's the direct pressure from politicians that will drive NR, and their wish to get passengers moving again, that will resolve this surely?

 

[The Planner]

Does Sch 8 still apply following nationalisation of SWR? Do payments under it now serve any purpose? It's the direct pressure from politicians that will drive NR, and their wish to get passengers moving again, that will resolve this surely?

It would be wooden dollars, but I'm not aware of it going, someone may know more.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does Sch 8 still apply following nationalisation of SWR? Do payments under it now serve any purpose? It's the direct pressure from politicians that will drive NR, and their wish to get passengers moving again, that will resolve this surely?

The MD of SWR is now responsible for his patch of NR, pending the full deep alliance later this year when the accounts will be merged. So I'd say no, or if it does it's completely meaningless.

 

[TheManBehind]

Thing is these sort of issues happen from time to time its how the railway responds to them that matters and Do Not Travel cannot be the deafult answer. The main line could be terminated short at C.Jcn or Wimbledon but they don't in fact not even running upto Woking by the looks of it at 0900. They have Windsor side then divert into there and thin the Windsor side services to free up some platforms but they don't. GBR needs to get a grip of this if its to stand for anything.

Being an ex-SWR control bod, I can tell you that that is utterly unworkable without already thinning out the service and dealing with the masses of crew who would need to be shuttled back and forth. Trains are every 2-3 minutes in the up direction in the morning - but can take upwards of 5 minutes to empty out at places like Clapham and Wimbledon, which aren't even long enough to accomodate the largest trains. You then also need to account for crossing back over to the down lines on the reverse (which you're unlikely to be able to do if your train is already longer than the platform), so the train needs to move on toward Waterloo or go into a depot which the driver may not sign.

And that's before looking at what we're actually going to do with 1000 people you've just turfed off at these stations who wanted to be in Central London, not zone 3, and the impact it has on the networks around it.

All of this needs to be managed by a single TSM and mostly by phone call to signallers, stations, and guards. On average I saw a TSM make and implement around 1 decision every 3-4 minutes at quickest, and usually closer to 5 minutes by the time they'd managed to get hold of the guard who didn't have their phone on or lost their signal. They're also dealing with call-ins because crew want to know what's going on, or want to confirm their service actually is terminating because they've seen it on Tyrell but don't trust it.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't better solutions - of course there are. Rapid timetable replanning, AI-supported problem solving, automated diagram notifications for service changes, ATSMs to support logging and tracking, more crew and increased route knowledge, full-crew working and simpler diagramming - but these all cost money because they reduce efficiency, and money is the one thing the railway isn't getting much of at the moment. Every year it's "net subsidy reduction", which typically means marketing works because it has a positive ROI, but things that don't have an ROI that can be realised within 12 months are not likely to happen.

Apologies if this comes off as a bit of a rant - I promise it's not, but more of a look at railway realities at a strategic level. The complaint is a valid one, and yes, there should be more opportunities to curtail services at sensible locations, but ultimately, this is a decision taken at political levels, when there are other, more pressing requirements for government money.

 

[James H]

MD of SWR is now responsible for his patch of NR

SWR were responding to people on twitter this morning saying the infrastructure is nothing to do with them