Signalling failure Rugby/MKC

[Bletchleyite]

According to the LM website they were running MKC and Tring locals. I guess that was also false?

 

[Bantamzen]

At the risk of playing the devil’s advocate here, could it not have been possible that LM having contacted coach / bus operators were told that due to problems on the road networks as a result of the flooding the companies could not guarantee or offer any rail replacement services? Hence their message yesterday?

I know when we have had flooding issues up here in Yorkshire, many bus companies struggle to operate their regular services, let alone offer spare units / drivers to cover rail replacements, especially if the problems start to occur during peak times. I’m pretty certain that when the Aire flooded last year Northern had to bat away any hopes of replacement buses as the companies were struggling to operate themselves (indeed one operator had a depot that flooded), with journey times along adjacent routes more than doubled (It took me 2.5 hours to travel between Shipley and Leeds on a route that would normally take around 40 mins) and so we were left with no option but to use the regular services along their diverted routes (and no ticket acceptance was negotiated to my knowledge).

It could just be that LM did not want to sour relations with any regular operators of replacements by announcing that they were not willing to offer them yesterday?

 

[33056]

According to the LM website they were running MKC and Tring locals. I guess that was also false?

Having a look through RTT it does appear that they were trying to run the xx.24 Euston to MK and xx.47 MK to Euston and some Tring terminators but, as usual, there was no information being given out at Euston as to what trains might be running. My "other half" turned up at Euston for the 14:54 which was showing as cancelled (just missed the late-running 14:24), as was the 15:13 and, not wishing to hang around on the offchance that the 15:24 would actually run, caught a Virgin service to MK to catch the Southern back which turned out to be quicker than getting the 15:24.

The biggest problem with LM appears to be they "loose the plot" when anything goes wrong. Whether that is a lack of experience in control or that when things go badly wrong there are not enough people to deal with the aftermath and keep everybody informed, or some other reason I do not know. I also appreciate that under BR it was a bit easier to deal with disruption as it was one company so there was the ability to say "This has happened and this is what we are going to do about it" without involving several different companies, each with their own controls, resources and agendas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could just be that LM did not want to sour relations with any regular operators of replacements by announcing that they were not willing to offer them yesterday?

If any coach company would be offended by LM having said "bus companies are unwilling to offer us a replacement service because of the state of the roads" then they need to grow up, frankly, and are part of the problem.

However, I don't agree that any bus company would have refused to operate between MKC and Wolverton for that reason as the roads were fine.

 

[miami]

If any coach company would be offended by LM having said "bus companies are unwilling to offer us a replacement service because of the state of the roads" then they need to grow up, frankly, and are part of the problem.

However, I don't agree that any bus company would have refused to operate between MKC and Wolverton as the roads were fine.

Isn't that what

We are unable to operate road transport due to flooding and disruption on motorways and local roads.

says?

It's just a shorter way of saying

We are unable to operate road transport due to {suppliers being unable or unable to provide it because of} flooding and disruption on motorways and local roads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, the first implies that LM have decided not to provide it for that reason, and once again there was no such problem preventing them getting some of the many taxis that queue at MKC to shuttle from MKC to Wolverton.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which way were the VTs operating, via Weedon or via Northampton?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 2040 last night was the wrong way round - with standard/A nearest London.
How do wcml trains get accidentally turned around?

As well as the Birmingham options, if you run a Pendolino from Glasgow/Polmadie to Edinburgh and then send it to London, as happens daily, it will be reversed.
It's the triangle at Carstairs which causes this.
There are now also some triangular options around Parkside/Earlestown

 

[Bantamzen]

If any coach company would be offended by LM having said "bus companies are unwilling to offer us a replacement service because of the state of the roads" then they need to grow up, frankly, and are part of the problem.

Think about it, you are a bus company contacted by LM about possible rail replacements. However you are getting reports of long delays on regular services / bookings, and off-duty drivers unable / unwilling to get to the depots to pick up the slack. You are possibly also getting swamped with queries about your services / bookings, and possibly even some complaints via social media. So you have to decline because it’s simply not going to be possible to make any commitment. Would you then really like the risk of also being blamed for LM passengers not being able to get home as well?

LM offered as much information as they could, i.e. buses could not be booked. The fact that your good self or other passengers don’t like the explanation why is neither here nor there. Buses could not be offered, so passengers had to make alternative arrangements. It isn’t the first time this will have happened, nor will it be the last. It’s certainly not an unreasonable explanation at all, and very likely to be true. Staring at a live traffic stream on something like Google Maps doesn’t always give the full picture. Just after Christmas when my wife and I were travelling home to Baildon, Google Maps implied that the road from Shipley to Baildon was open and traffic moving, event though we had seen pictures of Baildon Bridge being under water!

Perhaps they ought to have made more of an effort, but then with no buses available to them their only alternatives would have been to either negotiate ticket acceptance with local bus operators, or negotiate taxi transfers. The latter may not have been possible, or even acceptable to the operators if they were already filling up services and running long delays, and the latter would need sufficient taxis available to offer alternatives to all passengers that need them. Good luck finding enough there, especially at peak times with massive disruptions.

However, I don't agree that any bus company would have refused to operate between MKC and Wolverton for that reason as the roads were fine.

You seem to be fixated with services between Milton Keynes and Wolverton. Is there not already an adequate bus service between the two? From what I can see there are a few, so perhaps this wasn’t high up on LM’s, or indeed any potential replacement operator’s list? The roads may have been fine, but were there spare buses / drivers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM offered as much information as they could, i.e. buses could not be booked.

No, they didn't say that. They said no service was offered because of the conditions of roads. They did not say it was because coach companies had refused.

You seem to be fixated with services between Milton Keynes and Wolverton. Is there not already an adequate bus service between the two?

The only reason I can comment with certainty on that one was that I live in MK and as such can confirm for certain that the excuse given, as written, was not valid for MKC to Wolverton, as the roads required for that service were open and uncongested.

Yes, there is a bus service, but "go away and use it at your own cost" is not acceptable when the railway have made a decision[1] not to serve Wolverton. (In BR days the ICs may well have stopped - it has got fast line platforms!)

[1] Can anyone answer whether the VTs that ran were running via Northampton or Weedon? If the former, that means a decision was also made not to serve Northampton and Long Buckby, which is worse still, but I'm not sure which way they did go.

 

[Bantamzen]

No, they didn't say that. They said no service was offered because of the conditions of roads. They did not say it was because coach companies had refused.

See my previous comment on this matter. We are going around in circles here!

The only reason I can comment with certainty on that one was that I live in MK and as such can confirm for certain that the excuse given, as written, was not valid for MKC to Wolverton, as the roads required for that service were open and uncongested.

Yes, there is a bus service, but "go away and use it at your own cost" is not acceptable when the railway have made a decision[1] not to serve Wolverton. (In BR days the ICs may well have stopped - it has got fast line platforms!)

The bus operators are not forced to accept any request from LM to accept rail tickets. Even in a PTE like West Yorkshire, it's very rare that it happens! It certainly didn't during the floods at the back end of last year here. Luckily most commuters use Metro season tickets that can be used on bus or train. But sometimes things just don't link up, and the passenger has to make alternative arrangements. This is the nature of a privatised transport network.

 

[miami]

The two trains I got yesterday both avoided Northampton as normal.

The decision not to accept rail tickets on local buses is simply a financial reason, and one which should not be allowed.

 

[All Line Rover]

[1] Can anyone answer whether the VTs that ran were running via Northampton or Weedon? If the former, that means a decision was also made not to serve Northampton and Long Buckby, which is worse still, but I'm not sure which way they did go.

Weedon.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I had very little trouble travelling between Milton Keynes and Euston (Virgin) yesterday, up in the morning down in the evening. When I was at MK around 8pm there were quite a few coaches hanging around so LM must have done something

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weedon.

Cheers.

 

[OneOffDave]

I must have timed my journey fairly well as I managed to get on the delayed 1524 LM EUS>MKC but it took about an hour longer to get home. I cut my work day short as I knew as a wheelchair user trying to get a train in the crowding that was bound to happen at rush hour would have been almost impossible. LM staff and the NR assistance staff were great, despite being incredibly busy.

On the journey, despite the train dawdling along, we were only passed by one VT service which did surprise me.

When I got to MKC around 1700, passengers for Northampton were being directed to buses and coaches. I didn't hear anyone wanting to travel to Wolverton so I can't say if there was anything in place

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had very little trouble travelling between Milton Keynes and Euston (Virgin) yesterday, up in the morning down in the evening. When I was at MK around 8pm there were quite a few coaches hanging around so LM must have done something

So the problem is communication, then It often is, and in 2016 it really shouldn't be.

 

[David57]

LM did publish a list of at least four (mini)bus companies who were providing services for them between Rugby, Long Buckby and Northampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM did publish a list of at least four (mini)bus companies who were providing services for them between Rugby, Long Buckby and Northampton.

Where? Twitter? Not on their website.

So it's just down to atrocious and inconsistent communication, then.

 

[charley_17/7]

There was at least two LM managers (whom I know personally) on duty in Station Square directing (rail replacement) coaches around 1830. I know Z&S rocked up at least one (single decker) vehicle, and another 2 full size coaches parked up earlier at lunchtime, none of which were being used.

Fact is, since "Control" was moved from Bletchley to Birmingham, anywhere beyond Coventry may as well look after itself.

MK Transport Partnership has been trying to get cross-acceptance of tickets during disruption for years between LM and Arriva. Guess which one of the two doesn't want to do it?

Once, when working for FCC at Stevenage, the line was blocked between there and Welwyn GC, due to a broken down train. I rang up Arriva the Shires HQ (Luton) in a personal capacity, and asked, as a personal favour, whether they would consider accepting tickets for a short period, until our own RR services arrived. They were quite happy to do this, without quibble.

It is definitely due to incompetent management at London Midland. The front line staff are totally unsupported, which is a shame as they *are* doing a decent job.

 

[FordFocus]

Govia have a superb knack of making things worse.

Lack of staff on the ground because of shortages
Lack of staff in ticket offices because they either a) cut the hours or b) shut the office completely
No communication between the ground and control
Probably a lack of staff in control too
As mentioned, refusal to work with local bus companies on cost grounds

 

[Bungle965]

LM seem to be run by incompetent fools who have no idea how to run a train company!
Sam

 

[crehld]

So the problem is communication, then It often is, and in 2016 it really shouldn't be.

This nicely summarises my experience yesterday. Despite everything I made it to my destination on time, but only because I chose to actively ignore the inaccurate information and bad advice offered to me by staff at Crewe and because I went out of my way to find out information myself from third party sources given the complete lack of any provision of information from 'official' sources on the ground at Milton Keynes.

I understand disruption happens and it was clear things were being sorted out operationally, but I'm amazed that in this day and age it is considered acceptable for a major industry to have 'major incident' / 'disaster recovery' plans in place (which I'm guessing there were) without any provision of an effective communication strategy.

 

[DarloRich]

LM seem to be run by incompetent fools who have no idea how to run a train company!
Sam

is that right is it?

 

[Llanigraham]

LM seem to be run by incompetent fools who have no idea how to run a train company!
Sam

I love the way people make this sort of comment, but then don't supply their own expertise, or what qualifications they have to do the job better, or give the exact details of how they would have done to job better.

I'm sure London Midland and Network Rail would appreciate your offer to join them and solve all their problems. :roll:

 

[causton]

LM seem to be run by incompetent fools who have no idea how to run a train company!
Sam

Thank you. Makes me wonder why I bothered yesterday!

 

[David57]

Where? Twitter? Not on their website.

So it's just down to atrocious and inconsistent communication, then.

On travel alerts on their website yesterday morning, they named companies (Moulton Minibuses for one) who were providing services, whether that actually happened............

 

[driver_m]

So you don't think passengers should have been told the truth? It is only that that I am bothered about.



Unless the DfT's traffic website was not working, the M1 was free-flowing past Northampton for much of yesterday.

I actually drive past it most days. It was stopped at one point when I passed it. As was the m6. My mk1 eyeballs are better than a computer.

As for the other point, don't try and think for me. I dont work for LM. I just saw other 350s trying to get through a flood the same as my company did. Running a train service through a nightmare scenario. When NR are saying different things from one minute to the next about what speed we are doing and whether we can actually go through it what is any company supposed to do? Err on the side of caution and do your best.

 

[charley_17/7]

On travel alerts on their website yesterday morning, they named companies (Moulton Minibuses for one) who were providing services, whether that actually happened............

Anyone else would call it 'passing the buck'.

If they had a proper contingency plan, they would have organised stops, published on posters and in timetables/route guides, with station, or rail replacement bus, staff visible. Other TOCs manage to do it. Why can't LM?

Despite plenty of practice, they don't, and their NPS score goes to prove it.

Years ago I negotiated, with Milton Keynes Council, for them to use Y6 stand for RRBs. Prior to that, they planned on blocking up the pick-up/drop-off turning circle, which is congested even at off-peak times! Since the buses stands have been rearranged, due to the increase in buses using the station, no one has bothered to renegotiate, leading to conflict with service buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since the buses stands have been rearranged, due to the increase in buses using the station, no one has bothered to renegotiate, leading to conflict with service buses.

To be fair, the new bus station setup there plain doesn't work anyway, as anyone who has ever used Station Square for any purpose could have pointed out. The original proposal for a separate bus-only entrance and exit with a sawtooth bus station was vastly superior.

FWIW, the best rail replacement layout I have ever seen at MKC (though obviously not arrangeable at short notice as cars will be there) is the use of a bus "platform 0" in the car park below the bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On travel alerts on their website yesterday morning, they named companies (Moulton Minibuses for one) who were providing services, whether that actually happened............

Ah, that's where it was.

It wasn't on the special flooding page, which might be where one would think to look for it having been pointed there by a whacking great link on the front page.

 

[A0]

Anyone else would call it 'passing the buck'.

If they had a proper contingency plan, they would have organised stops, published on posters and in timetables/route guides, with station, or rail replacement bus, staff visible. Other TOCs manage to do it. Why can't LM?

No - most of them don't have posters etc available when there are unforeseen outages - and anyone who thinks LM are the only ones to suffer needs to take a look at EMT's twitter feed from Tuesday.

There was a fatality north of Bedford, resulting in complete closure between Kettering & Bedford for a couple of hours.

Yet the RRBs which were stood up ran from Wellingborough - Northampton. And the advice given was for Wellingborough passengers to travel via Northampton and NOT use Thameslink.

All well and good, but what if you wanted to travel from Luton - Kettering, for example.

They did eventually sort out buses to cover Bedford - Wellingborough but judging by social media it wasn't straightforward either.