Signalling error leading to train rerouting

[deltic]

Travelling from Birmingham to London yesterday early evening our train was routed via Northampton. The train manager announced this was due to a signalling error as the signaller had mistaken our train for a London Midland service.

While we all make mistakes, given the information signallers have on their control panels is this likely? And if a mistake of this nature was made what procedure, if any, does the driver have to follow before accepting the route. My naive view would be that a driver would stop the train and check with control/signaller why they were being diverted before proceeding.

 

[western Champion]

Travelling from Birmingham to London yesterday early evening our train was routed via Northampton. The train manager announced this was due to a signalling error as the signaller had mistaken our train for a London Midland service.

While we all make mistakes, given the information signallers have on their control panels is this likely? And if a mistake of this nature was made what procedure, if any, does the driver have to follow before accepting the route. My naive view would be that a driver would stop the train and check with control/signaller why they were being diverted before proceeding.

In most other circumstances the Driver would question the route but not this one. The instruction for all VT services is if you are routed via Northampton then take it without question. This avoids delays escalating from drivers questioning the route when the decision to re route has been taken at short notice due to incident etc. It happened to me a couple of years ago on a down service, I took the route then rang the TM who rang control and was told it had been done in error.

 

[greatkingrat]

Another example is fast trains Victoria - Bromley South, which will accept either the route via Herne Hill, or via Catford without questioning it.

 

[westcoaster]

Another example is fast trains Victoria - Bromley South, which will accept either the route via Herne Hill, or via Catford without questioning it.

Also the same for services blackfriars to Bromley South, as long as you do not have a booked stop either route can be taken without questioning it. Same applies to brighton service between East croydon and Gatwick airport, you can go either via the quarry lines or Redhill.

Seems Mr Adonis was on this service as well and tweeted about it in a very harsh way.

My Virgin Birmingham-London train diverted via Northampton 'in signalling error' making it 30 mins late. Amazing Network Rail incompetence

 

[Alistair G.]

Comment withdrawn

 

[455driver]

Is everyone absolutely certain it was an error?
We all know how Vermin like to blame everyone else for their train being late!
We're there any issues on the mainline necessitating the train being diverted?

 

[jimjim]

Seems Mr Adonis was on this service as well and tweeted about it in a very harsh way.

Seems Mr Adonis might have trouble reading the timetable. Was 8min late at Rugby already. Diverted via Northampton and went through MKC 19min late. With the train eventually arriving at Euston 15min late.

 

[driver_m]

Is everyone absolutely certain it was an error?
We all know how Vermin like to blame everyone else for their train being late!
We're there any issues on the mainline necessitating the train being diverted?

Why would our TM make something up if they'd said to the passengers it was a signalling error? The minute we go left for no apparent reason at rugby, the TM is finding out why. Also the stats back it up, NR cause most most of our delays

 

[High Dyke]

Why would our TM make something up if they'd said to the passengers it was a signalling error? The minute we go left for no apparent reason at rugby, the TM is finding out why. Also the stats back it up, NR cause most most of our delays

Yes signallers do make errors. Yes drivers do make errors. In many cases though the responsibility is split between both the signaller and driver as both may equally have been at fault. It may not necessarily be the fault of the person activating the signal controls. Is the route fitted with Automatic Route Setting (ARS)? That system isn't without its problems.

Communication between on-train staff and their Train Running Control isn't always the best... As for saying "NR cause most most of our delays" perhaps if we had a nationalised rail system there wouldn't be this 'us & them' blame culture that pervades modern society?

 

[Alistair G.]

Is the route fitted with Automatic Route Setting (ARS)? That system isn't without its problems.

It is not ARS. Currently none of rugby SCC is equipped with working ARS

 

[High Dyke]

It is not ARS. Currently none of rugby SCC is equipped with working ARS

Thanks. It isn't an area i'm familiar with.

 

[carriageline]

NR cause most most of our delays

Is that really a surprise?

That's because NR are the infrastructure owner, they have the most 'things' that can cause delays, and have more delay codes that can be attributed to them. And they also have to take responsibility for a lot of delays that are not necessarily their fault. Okay, infrastructure failures yes, but trespassing, cable theft, suicides etc no.




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[Alistair G.]

Is everyone absolutely certain it was an error?
We all know how Vermin like to blame everyone else for their train being late!
We're there any issues on the mainline necessitating the train being diverted?

As many people know, I work at rugby SCC which is why I decided to withdraw a comment I originally Made, but it's nice to see somebody realises it might not just be all black and White and signaller error.

 

[High Dyke]

Is that really a surprise?

That's because NR are the infrastructure owner, they have the most 'things' that can cause delays, and have more delay codes that can be attributed to them. And they also have to take responsibility for a lot of delays that are not necessarily their fault. Okay, infrastructure failures yes, but trespassing, cable theft, suicides etc no.

Nothing surprises me abouth them these days... Perhaps i'm too cynical.

I do agree with you about the '3rd party' delays that NR are penalised for. That is wrong.

 

[NSE]

While I know many drivers sign both routes, I didn't realise they would be told to accept it without question, though it makes perfect sense. Would this apply for GN trains running non stop between Finsbury Park - Stevenage, they would go via Hertford North without question?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Also the same for services blackfriars to Bromley South, as long as you do not have a booked stop either route can be taken without questioning it. Same applies to brighton service between East croydon and Gatwick airport, you can go either via the quarry lines or Redhill....

And there are three routes for Thameslink trains between East Croydon and London Blackfriars IIRC (not all the trains stop at London Bridge).

Why would our TM make something up if they'd said to the passengers it was a signalling error? The minute we go left for no apparent reason at rugby, the TM is finding out why. Also the stats back it up, NR cause most most of our delays

Slightly off topic, but whilst I don't think he would have reason to make it up (or the control centre for that matter), I do wonder if it would have been better not to mention the error, perhaps just commenting that the train had been diverted from it's usual path and would be a little late as a result.

Of course we do then get into discussion about what the passenger should be told and that they want to know every minute detail so they can lay blame on someone they have never, and probably will never, meet.

 

[westcoaster]

While I know many drivers sign both routes, I didn't realise they would be told to accept it without question, though it makes perfect sense. Would this apply for GN trains running non stop between Finsbury Park - Stevenage, they would go via Hertford North without question?

The ones I have posted about are in the sectional appendix, so it would all depend if it is in there. Also the ones above there would be minimal time difference between either route. Going via Hertford north adds time on iirc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And there are three routes for Thameslink trains between East Croydon and London Blackfriars IIRC (not all the trains stop at London Bridge).



Slightly off topic, but whilst I don't think he would have reason to make it up (or the control centre for that matter), I do wonder if it would have been better not to mention the error, perhaps just commenting that the train had been diverted from it's usual path and would be a little late as a result.

Of course we do then get into discussion about what the passenger should be told and that they want to know every minute detail so they can lay blame on someone they have never, and probably will never, meet.

With the three routes between blackfriars and East Croydon there is no local instruction so you follow the route on the diagram (now say via crystal palace, l bridge, selhurst) and stop if wrong routed.

 

[The Planner]

It is not ARS. Currently none of rugby SCC is equipped with working ARS

I thought it was going to ARS? We spent ages jumping through hoops to make sure all the concievable timing points were set up for it.

 

[MarkyT]

At many junctions, by the time the driver becomes fully aware of which route is set it is too late to stop short of the signal. In those cases last minute stopping can leave a train blocking or route locking the junction resulting in the signaller being unable to reroute, and knock on delays racking up to following and other conflicting trains. Whereas route knowledge is a major issue in UK, less so in many parts of Europe where drivers don't 'sign' routes in the same way, there are in addition cases where the infrastructure simply cannot accept certain types of traffic on certain routings and the driver's vigilence is then absolutely essential. One such case is a non-electrified branch diverging from an electrified line, another is a weight or loading gauge constraint. An example of the latter is approaching Shortlands Junction where cross London freights must run via Catford rather than Herne Hill. To give sufficient advance warning, a preliminary route indicator was provided to show the route set. The feature isn't required for normal junction safe speed control purposes, but purely to give sufficient notice to allow a freight train to pull up completely short of the junction signal if wrongly routed, so the signaller can reroute again with minimum delay.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....With the three routes between blackfriars and East Croydon there is no local instruction so you follow the route on the diagram (now say via crystal palace, l bridge, selhurst) and stop if wrong routed.

Oh, okay. When I worked down there the job cards were just a list of station calling times. If you stopped at Tulse Hill, London Bridge, or somewhere else, you knew which route it was, if not.... (at least that's how I remember it, it was a decade ago)

 

[Alistair G.]

I thought it was going to ARS? We spent ages jumping through hoops to make sure all the concievable timing points were set up for it.

All equipment has been installed and we even had our training on it, however, we were told due to "technical problems" it is not to be switched on and currently every workstation has an RT3187 for ARS to be switched off.

I have no further insight into this I'm afraid, im the mere pleb on the front who has to signal, clearly a higher power makes these calls!.

I do believe the plan is to go ARS at some point but that won't be for a while from what hear.

 

[driver_m]

Is that really a surprise?

That's because NR are the infrastructure owner, they have the most 'things' that can cause delays, and have more delay codes that can be attributed to them. And they also have to take responsibility for a lot of delays that are not necessarily their fault. Okay, infrastructure failures yes, but trespassing, cable theft, suicides etc no.


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It was the 'vermin' comment what bugged me. Every company out there fights its corner over delays which most of us have an opinion on. I'd imagine my driving colleagues in any company would want people fighting their corner over being blamed for delays seeing as it happens regularly.

 

[TDK]

While I know many drivers sign both routes, I didn't realise they would be told to accept it without question, though it makes perfect sense. Would this apply for GN trains running non stop between Finsbury Park - Stevenage, they would go via Hertford North without question?

When I was a driver with WSMR we were told to take certain routes without question if we could get to out destination without missing and station stops however in some cases you can tell as a driver if a route has been set out of course and then nowadays call the signalman on the GSMR before arriving at the junction signal. I was routed wrongly once on the approach to Stechford on the down and knew this quite a long was from the junction signal so called the signaller up and he apologised and said he will reset the route, time lost none!

 

[455driver]

It was the 'vermin' comment what bugged me. Every company out there fights its corner over delays which most of us have an opinion on. I'd imagine my driving colleagues in any company would want people fighting their corner over being blamed for delays seeing as it happens regularly.

I always call them Virmin (capital V out of respect ) but every time there is a failure or an issue on their network they always blame somebody else for it even if its their train which has caused the problem in the first place!

If there are OHL problems then its NRs fault, even if it was a faulty pan on a bendidildo which has brought it down, that is what I mean.

 

[matchmaker]

A good few years ago now, but I was on my way home on a Glasgow-Stirling 156 service. I was seated looking forward at a window seat and as we passed Castlecary the brakes went on and I noticed a signal showing green, instead of flashing double yellow, which would have been the correct indication as we should have been routed over the speed restricted turnoff at Greenhill Junction.

We stopped at the following signal - showing green. The driver got down and went to the SPT. Words were obviously exchanged! The signal went back to red, then flashing yellow. We set off...

I've no idea how it happened, but suspect that the signaller at Greenhill got us mixed up with an Edinburgh service which took the main route!

 

[Alistair G.]

We have a lot of drivers that will ring up and query routes if they think have been shown an incorrect road but Virgin won't, and from what I have been instructed we are not allowed to ring Virgin drivers on the move (this rule only applies to Virgin drivers at our box) so even if u do give them the wrong road you have to wait for them to contact us.

But then that can back fire on them because when a driver takes that route its a 50/50 split.

No ideas why they won't take a call and other drivers/companies will. Not like we want a phone for a chat!.

 

[455driver]

No ideas why they won't take a call and other drivers/companies will. Not like we want a phone for a chat!.

Because at some TOCs using the GSMR/NRN/crewcall is classed as a distraction! :roll:

Yep they dont think the driver is smart enough to know when its safe to use the radios etc and when its best to leave them. Thankfully my present (and previous) TOC are a bit more sensible than that.

 

[Marklund]

Why would our TM make something up if they'd said to the passengers it was a signalling error?

It's not the first time I've been at a station when a train has been announced as being delayed for "Signalling Failure" at XYZ.

The only problem is, I would be the person responsible for attending the failure at XYZ to repair it, and err, guess what?

No such failure!

 

[carriageline]

We have a lot of drivers that will ring up and query routes if they think have been shown an incorrect road but Virgin won't, and from what I have been instructed we are not allowed to ring Virgin drivers on the move (this rule only applies to Virgin drivers at our box) so even if u do give them the wrong road you have to wait for them to contact us.



But then that can back fire on them because when a driver takes that route its a 50/50 split.



No ideas why they won't take a call and other drivers/companies will. Not like we want a phone for a chat!.

Are you not allowed to send them "contact signaller" text over GSMR? A lot of boxes have been told not to call drivers whilst on the move, but sending them the text then places the onus on them. Obviously we are not allowed to ring drivers approaching a red, but we can never tell when they are standing at it, so that again places the onus on them.


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[Minilad]

We have a lot of drivers that will ring up and query routes if they think have been shown an incorrect road but Virgin won't, and from what I have been instructed we are not allowed to ring Virgin drivers on the move (this rule only applies to Virgin drivers at our box) so even if u do give them the wrong road you have to wait for them to contact us.

But then that can back fire on them because when a driver takes that route its a 50/50 split.

No ideas why they won't take a call and other drivers/companies will. Not like we want a phone for a chat!.

My TOC is the same. Cannot use GSMR whilst on the move. I will refrain from making a comment about it though!!