Signaller awareness of SPADs

[OhNoAPacer]

When a SPAD occurs I presume that the signaller is aware that it has occurred and can thus take appropriate action, is my assumption correct or are there cases where this would not happen?
I also assume that in the event of a SPAD that, even if the signaller is automatically alerted, that the driver would contact the signaller, again is my assumption correct?
On trains that have a guard does he, as I expect, have expected actions to perform?

I guess I am just interested in a simple, I realise these things are never simple, explanation for what happens immediately following a SPAD.

Thanks in advance.

 

[12LDA28C]

There are a lot of assumptions in there, and there is not really a one-size-fits-all explanation for every SPaD that happens on the network.

 

[66701GBRF]

Usually Signallers generally won't be aware until the train has started to occupy the next track circuit block. The location of which can differ depending on location and signal type. There should always be conversation between Signaller and driver follwing a SPAD. There are instances where the driver might not have been aware they have had a SPAD and would need signaller intervention.

 

[Llanigraham]

Usually Signallers generally won't be aware until the train has started to occupy the next track circuit block. The location of which can differ depending on location and signal type. There should always be conversation between Signaller and driver follwing a SPAD. There are instances where the driver might not have been aware they have had a SPAD and would need signaller intervention.

In AB areas there's more than likely not going be a track circuit beyond the signal, so the only way the signaller will know will be when the driver rings him.

 

[Supercoss]

On Track circuit block you can spad but providing overlap block joint is not passed no one will initially know despite front of train having passed signal at danger
in sidings and depots "STOP" boards are also signals again these are passed at danger without authority occasionally especially where locomotive is not at leading end of movement

as to guards , primary responsibility is not to give ready to start signal if platform starter is at danger "Ding Ding & away"

 

[pdeaves]

There are instances where the driver might not have been aware they have had a SPAD

An extreme example being the cause of the Ladbroke Grove accident. Any driver not knowing they have passed a signal at danger will not be aware to stop and contact the signaller. Naturally, there are many instances through history where a driver is aware, stops and contacts the signaller, too.

 

[800301]

When a SPAD occurs I presume that the signaller is aware that it has occurred and can thus take appropriate action, is my assumption correct or are there cases where this would not happen?
I also assume that in the event of a SPAD that, even if the signaller is automatically alerted, that the driver would contact the signaller, again is my assumption correct?
On trains that have a guard does he, as I expect, have expected actions to perform?

I guess I am just interested in a simple, I realise these things are never simple, explanation for what happens immediately following a SPAD.

Thanks in advance.

In short no, the signaller isn’t always immediately aware that a SPAD has occurred.

A driver always has to always contact the signaller to repot the SPAD

The guard doesn’t really have much to do with a SPAD

If the signal and train are fitted with TPWS this should cause an Emergency Brake Application to stop the train before the conflict point

 

[InkyScrolls]

In short no, the signaller isn’t always immediately aware that a SPAD has occurred.

A driver always has to always contact the signaller to repot the SPAD

The guard doesn’t really have much to do with a SPAD

If the signal and train are fitted with TPWS this should cause an Emergency Brake Application to stop the train before the conflict point

The guard is instructed to inform Control immediately so they can arrange for the driver to be taken off duty at the next available opportunity, for 'tea without biscuits with management'.

 

[Horizon22]

There are also"technical" SPADs (normally given a type A-B-C) or SPARs (signal passed at red) whereby an issue with the infrastructure has caused the issue (track circuit issue causing a signal to be green, then flash to red as an example), or a signaller irregularity in replacing a route to danger. The signaller may also do so in an emergency for a wider area, which might cause a driver to SPAD, even if the train is fully in emergency braking.

 

[High Dyke]

In short no, the signaller isn’t always immediately aware that a SPAD has occurred.

Indeed. There was an incident in an Absolute Block signalled area a few years ago. The signal concerned only had a berth track circuit. The freight train involved was initially stopped for a report of no tail lamp.

After checking the train, the driver asked the signaller if they knew where his train had actually stopped? The signaller couldn't confirm the finer details of this, but the driver owned up to the SPAD.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

All very interesting replies, thank you all very much.

 

[skyhigh]

The guard is instructed to inform Control immediately so they can arrange for the driver to be taken off duty at the next available opportunity, for 'tea without biscuits with management'.

I think a decent guard would actually check with the driver first. If I had a SPAD because the signal went back in my face and the guard immediately phoned Control to tell them I'd SPAD'd without the context I'd be a little peeved...

 

[InkyScrolls]

I think a decent guard would actually check with the driver first. If I had a SPAD because the signal went back in my face and the guard immediately phoned Control to tell them I'd SPAD'd without the context I'd be a little peeved...

Well, obviously. I meant 'immediately' as in 'immediately after the driver has explained the situation'.

 

[philthetube]

I think a decent guard would actually check with the driver first. If I had a SPAD because the signal went back in my face and the guard immediately phoned Control to tell them I'd SPAD'd without the context I'd be a little peeved...

Unless told by the driver the guard would need impressive line knowledge to be 100% sure that a spad had occurred.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Unless told by the driver the guard would need impressive line knowledge to be 100% sure that a spad had occurred.

Gaurd wouldn't know what had happened until told, bit ridiculous to assume a firing style meeting too before any investigation. Spars etc. Do happen.

 

[Ken X]

On a related subject, at my local station, Horsham, two trains regularly become one. The second, fast train mates with the slow, forming the Victoria service. As a non-rail engineer it has often occurred to me that the second train would seem to pass a red signal in order to perform this operation. Is this done in combination with the signalling staff or is there another process to follow. Just idle curiosity .

 

[GWVillager]

On a related subject, at my local station, Horsham, two trains regularly become one. The second, fast train mates with the slow, forming the Victoria service. As a non-rail engineer it has often occurred to me that the second train would seem to pass a red signal in order to perform this operation. Is this done in combination with the signalling staff or is there another process to follow. Just idle curiosity .

There are shunt signals to allow multiple trains in one block.

 

[king_walnut]

On a related subject, at my local station, Horsham, two trains regularly become one. The second, fast train mates with the slow, forming the Victoria service. As a non-rail engineer it has often occurred to me that the second train would seem to pass a red signal in order to perform this operation. Is this done in combination with the signalling staff or is there another process to follow. Just idle curiosity .

In this case, the railway terminology for it is 'permissive working'. The home signal for Horsham will be red, as you can't have a yellow or a green into a section that's occupied, but it will have a position light signal associated with it in the form of two diagonal white lights. If those lights are lit then the train can pass that red signal and proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of the train that's in that section. The same signalling arrangement applies when moving a train into a sidings from a main line.

 

[GordonT]

If a SPAD takes place in tandem with the train overshooting a platform at which it is booked to stop, once the Driver and Signaller have conferred will the driver be given authority to set back into the platform or will that not be permitted?

 

[Ken X]

In this case, the railway terminology for it is 'permissive working'. The home signal for Horsham will be red, as you can't have a yellow or a green into a section that's occupied, but it will have a position light signal associated with it in the form of two diagonal white lights. If those lights are lit then the train can pass that red signal and proceed at caution being prepared to stop short of the train that's in that section. The same signalling arrangement applies when moving a train into a sidings from a main line.

Many thanks for your explanation. Always like to understand these things. Guessed it was a normal procedure but wondered how it was achieved.

 

[skyhigh]

If a SPAD takes place in tandem with the train overshooting a platform at which it is booked to stop, once the Driver and Signaller have conferred will the driver be given authority to set back into the platform or will that not be permitted?

Depends very much on the situation. There isn't a one size fits all rule.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Depends very much on the situation. There isn't a one size fits all rule.

Never a driver myself, but was involved in the technical side of risk vs SPAD's etc, to a minor degree, and in (my) latter days the 'as issued' list of potential distractions on approach to major (terminal) locations became never ending, to the point that I began to wonder if new entrants to the footplate grade, on reading the relevant documents, might spend more (than was wise) time in their early driving career(s) actively looking for potential distractions, rather than concentrating on the road ahead and the (signal) aspects pertaining to same? Don't know, just a thought?

 

[Volvictof]

No one size fits all but some signals do have Spad alarms which will alert the signaller, otherwise they will only notice when the train occupies the next circuit block or the driver rings in and tells the signaller he’s had a Spad. The signaller should then fill in a Spad 1 form taking the answers word for word from the driver. Signaller then should confer with the drivers TOC regarding Getting the driver relieved asap. Once the driver is back at their sign on location they will be drug and alcohol tested and interviewed and an investigation will commence whilst the driver is stood down from driving duties.

 

[Llanigraham]

The guard is instructed to inform Control immediately so they can arrange for the driver to be taken off duty at the next available opportunity, for 'tea without biscuits with management'.

Not neccessarily, especially if it was caused by the signaller "putting it back" too soon.
I know, as I did it once on a Sunday shift I had been cautioning passed a failed signal for 6 hours and put the lever back into the frame too early.
Driver stopped and rang me and knew exactly what I had done immediately.
Said he was OK to continue as he was laughing at me.
I rang Control and told them what I had done and why.
LOM then rang me and the same explanation given.
LOM shocked I had been cautioning for that long and told to forget it.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not neccessarily, especially if it was caused by the signaller "putting it back" too soon.
I know, as I did it once on a Sunday shift I had been cautioning passed a failed signal for 6 hours and put the lever back into the frame too early.
Driver stopped and rang me and knew exactly what I had done immediately.
Said he was OK to continue as he was laughing at me.
I rang Control and told them what I had done and why.
LOM then rang me and the same explanation given.
LOM shocked I had been cautioning for that long and told to forget it.

That's not a SPAD, though

 

[Llanigraham]

That's not a SPAD, though

It was when I did it. SPAR was introduced later.

 

[800301]

If a SPAD takes place in tandem with the train overshooting a platform at which it is booked to stop, once the Driver and Signaller have conferred will the driver be given authority to set back into the platform or will that not be permitted?

Depending on the situation

“
If your train overruns a platform, it can only return to the platform if both of the following apply.

• The overrun is no more than 400 metres (440 yards) beyond the platform.
• You have received permission from the signaller.

You must tell the guard when permission has been given for the train to return to the platform.

If the train has to pass over a level crossing, you must make sure that the crossing is clear.”

 

[12LDA28C]

If a SPAD takes place in tandem with the train overshooting a platform at which it is booked to stop, once the Driver and Signaller have conferred will the driver be given authority to set back into the platform or will that not be permitted?

Often in that situation the driver will be permitted to set back (by changing ends, where possible) into the platform where it is very likely the train would be taken out of service and the driver relieved of duty if it were a category 'A' SPaD.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2023 ==

If the train has to pass over a level crossing, you must make sure that the crossing is clear.

If the train has to pass over an automatic level crossing for which no wrong-direction controls are provided, the driver will not be permitted to set back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Feb 2023 ==

It was when I did it. SPAR was introduced later.

That is not a category 'A' SPaD and the driver would not be held to blame with no action taken against them. Signals are regularly passed due to them being put back to danger in front of the driver, or track circuit failures and so on. Generally the driver stops, reports it and is asked if they are ok to continue and no more is said.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Spad 1 form

Pedantary, but it's an RT3189 form.

 

[Efini92]

Pedantary, but it's an RT3189 form.

Is it still a 3189? I thought they changed it a few years ago?