Signalbox.io extreme inaccuracy

[cosmicten]

I notice there are a couple of discussions on the inaccuracy of signalbox, well I was standing on the platform the other day early morning, the only passenger, waiting for my train when the board said it was cancelled.

I popped onto signalbox.io to see if this was true and it showed the train coming. I watched down the track as the website showed my train come down the line, stop at the station and then carry on when in reality nothing showed up - because the train really was cancelled.

it’s a shame but I suspect this idea that it’s real time tracking is far from the truth and potentially either just based on timetables/live platform data and may be signal to signal information when available.

 

[aaronspence]

Just found the signalbox website and had to find this thread to also agree with your findings. Its a fantasy. Based on trains running to their timetable.

Any sort of delay, even a minute out, and its not correct, I don't actually understand the point of the website.

 

[SLC001]

Bit like Northampton a couple of years ago. "Live" bus information at bus stops was actually taken from the timetable and was not real time information.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

it’s a shame but I suspect this idea that it’s real time tracking is far from the truth and potentially either just based on timetables/live platform data and may be signal to signal information when available.

Pretty much, I think it uses the same data stream that RTT/Traksy/etc use, but since they don't want to have kilometres where the train could be, they pretend where trains are

if you watch both side by side, you can see when a late train makes its presence known on Traksy, the same train on signalbox starts ploughing through houses to get to where it has just been reported as being.

While the technology to have something like signalbox exists (look at bustimes.org), making it useful would mean about 4 thousand GPS trackers need purchasing, implementing, and maintaining to cover the whole network, just for slightly more accurate readings than RTT.

 

[aaronspence]

Pretty much, I think it uses the same data stream that RTT/Traksy/etc use, but since they don't want to have kilometres where the train could be, they pretend where trains are

if you watch both side by side, you can see when a late train makes its presence known on Traksy, the same train on signalbox starts ploughing through houses to get to where it has just been reported as being.

While the technology to have something like signalbox exists (look at bustimes.org), making it useful would mean about 4 thousand GPS trackers need purchasing, implementing, and maintaining to cover the whole network, just for slightly more accurate readings than RTT.

That brings an interesting question, Do Train companies not have atleast an internal GPS tracking map of where their fleet are? I'd have thought so.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That brings an interesting question, Do Train companies not have atleast an internal GPS tracking map of where their fleet are? I'd have thought so.

With the signalling system how it is, I can't imagine that is nessecary, they probably just use a signal map or the same data that goes to RTT.

I just remembered something, don't some RTT reports come from GPS?
Well this certianly looks like GPS, reports from Heysham Harbour and Morecambe Jn G.F. seem to come from TRUST (GPS).

I can't think of any more locations that I'm aware of that say that, but there probably are some.

 

[Stephen42]

That brings an interesting question, Do Train companies not have atleast an internal GPS tracking map of where their fleet are? I'd have thought so.

Many trains are fitted with GPS, some will report their position to an industry system used to generate movement reports where the signalling system can't (things like long blocks, multiple stations in a block or token sections). GPS might also be used for triggering SDO at short platforms depending on train type. Trains often report data back for maintenance warnings, on more recent trains a lot more beside - exactly what data visualisations train companies have isn't public.

On the main topic Signalbox isn't as accurate as it could be, but hard to see a revenue stream worth investing on a more accurate rival solution. Particularly with Trainline having decided to acquire Signalbox rather than compete.

 

[takno]

As i understand it most trains are fitted with GPS and the data is collected at a central level, but there's a lot of uncertainty in Network Rail about the best way to expose the data, so it isn't currently in public feeds.

Personally I don't believe that geographical information is all that useful anyway, in most cases for buses and in virtually all cases for trains. When a bus gets to you is determined by road layout, speed limits, traffic and route. For trains it's heavily determined by speed limits, route and other trains in the area.

Obviously GPS would be better than nothing for manually signalled areas or really long blocks, but generally a roll out of better signalling or the opening up of disconnected describers would always be more useful.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Personally I don't believe that geographical information is all that useful anyway, in most cases for buses and in virtually all cases for trains. When a bus gets to you is determined by road layout, speed limits, traffic and route.

Knowing a bus's location is so incredibly useful.

Before I knew about bustimes.org (it probably didn't exist yet), I'd probably lost 10s of hours at bus stops waiting for the once an hour local bus to show up running 20 minutes late.
Now I just check where the bus is before leaving the house, and don't leave until it's close enough.

I just wish I could do the same for Rail Replacement Buses.

 

[takno]

Knowing a bus's location is so incredibly useful.

Before I knew about bustimes.org (it probably didn't exist yet), I'd probably lost 10s of hours at bus stops waiting for the once an hour local bus to show up running 20 minutes late.
Now I just check where the bus is before leaving the house, and don't leave until it's close enough.

I just wish I could do the same for Rail Replacement Buses.

My point isn't that live tracking isn't useful, and bustimes is as good as we've got for buses. The point is more that a geographical map doesn't tell you much about whether the bus is 2 miles away down a fast empty road, or 2 miles away on a road with 10 sets of traffic lights where 2 lanes are closed by an accident.

 

[aaronspence]

My point isn't that live tracking isn't useful, and bustimes is as good as we've got for buses. The point is more that a geographical map doesn't tell you much about whether the bus is 2 miles away down a fast empty road, or 2 miles away on a road with 10 sets of traffic lights where 2 lanes are closed by an accident.

For frequent travelers who know their route and how long the bus or train takes to get from the previous stop, it can be useful though.

 

[Nym]

Most trains are fitted with GPS as part of some sub system, but I don't know of a 'central system' or 'central version' of the GPS usage. Icomera or OBC would be the closest, but they're not Network Rail.

 

[Stephen42]

Most trains are fitted with GPS as part of some sub system, but I don't know of a 'central system' or 'central version' of the GPS usage. Icomera or OBC would be the closest, but they're not Network Rail.

It's a National Rail system rather than Network Rail. Referred to in some documentation as either Customer Information GPS Platform or Train Location Monitoring System, very few details are publicly available and it's not planned to be released as open data.

 

[Nym]

It's a National Rail system rather than Network Rail. Referred to in some documentation as either Customer Information GPS Platform or Train Location Monitoring System, very few details are publicly available and it's not planned to be released as open data.

Maybe I need to rephrase.

There is no single piece of equipment, or single manufacturer of equipment that is fitted to every train and includes GPS, GNSS or GLONAS. So any such system as to which is being referred to would need to be a combination of data, from a company such as Icomera, TrainFX or OBC which has access to a lot of this data within their own proprietary systems. But this does not form a "National Rail" system.