Siemens pull out of Crossrail trains bid

[Class377/5]

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/07/05/siemens-withdraws-from-crossrail-rolling-stock-contest/

Siemens withdraws from Crossrail rolling stock contest

Siemens has said it ‘will not be proceeding further’ in the competition to build new trains for Crossrail.

In a statement, the German train manufacturer said that the decision to withdraw was ‘a strategic decision that has been taken based on current business activity levels’.

The announcement follows confirmation last week that Siemens would be supplying the new Thameslink trains – two years after the company was announced as the preferred bidder.

“Crossrail is a very large project and, since first undertaking our initial assessment of capacity and deliverability, Siemens has won multiple additional order,” Siemens said in an announcement today (July 5).

“To pursue another project of this scale could impact our ability to deliver our current customer commitments – something we believe would not be a responsible course of action.

“We remain fully committed to ensuring the success of the Crossrail project through the continued delivery of the signalling and communications / control systems through Siemens rail automation business.”

This seems a rather sensible move from Siemens. With the delay from Thameslink means the two train contracts are now very much overlapping rather than the original follow on plan.

I'm not overly surprised given the Thameslink contract details means they have a lot to do.

 

[Mikey C]

The thought had crossed my mind that this would happen, with the size of both orders and the complication of delivering so many units.

Politically, after the storm their Thameslink win caused (whether right or wrong) I can imagine that politicians would have done anything not to give them Crossrail as well, even if it might make operational sense.

 

[Muzer]

Aw, I hope we're not stuck with falling-apart-at-the-seams Bombardier crap. Perhaps they'll get their act together a bit more by then, and it won't be too bad - S-stock has been rather nice if you ignore the teething problems, but obviously completely different trains that can't really be compared.

 

[transmanche]

Aw, I hope we're not stuck with falling-apart-at-the-seams Bombardier crap.

I think CAF and Hitachi are still in the race.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aw, I hope we're not stuck with falling-apart-at-the-seams Bombardier crap. Perhaps they'll get their act together a bit more by then, and it won't be too bad - S-stock has been rather nice if you ignore the teething problems, but obviously completely different trains that can't really be compared.

Hitachi and CAF are still bidding, along with Bombardier.

 

[Muzer]

Ah, I'd forgotten about Hitachi. That's reassuring.

I'm only vaguely aware of CAF, do they have any passenger stock in the UK that I might have been on?

 

[gordonthemoron]

haven't CAF supplied CIE?

 

[LexyBoy]

Not surprising. I would imagine TfL would be happy enough with Bombardier's offering, what with the S-stock and LO trains being pretty well received.

Unless AnsaldoBreda will be stepping forward?
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I'm only vaguely aware of CAF, do they have any passenger stock in the UK that I might have been on?

NIR Classes 3000 and 4000; in England there's the Class 332s and 333s though these had some involvement with Siemens.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Ah, I'd forgotten about Hitachi. That's reassuring.

I'm only vaguely aware of CAF, do they have any passenger stock in the UK that I might have been on?

They built the 332 and 333's (Heathrow Express and Northern Rail) in partnership with Siemens.

 

[transmanche]

I'm only vaguely aware of CAF, do they have any passenger stock in the UK that I might have been on?

They had some involvement with the Class 332s & 333s - possibly just construction? In NI they've built the Class 3000 & 4000 for Translink.

 

[fgwrich]

Not surprising. I would imagine TfL would be happy enough with Bombardier's offering, what with the S-stock and LO trains being pretty well received.

Unless AnsaldoBreda will be stepping forward?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


NIR Classes 3000 and 4000; in England there's the Class 332s and 333s though these had some involvement with Siemens.

And fantastic trains they are too. Shame that there's so little CAF rolling stock in the UK as it's actually very well built stock with a very nice and spacious interior.

 

[sprinterguy]

They had some involvement with the Class 332s & 333s - possibly just construction? In NI they've built the Class 3000 & 4000 for Translink.

The bogies are a CAF design, the electrical and traction equipment is Siemens. I think that the bodyshells are CAF as well, and they were constructed at CAF's factory in Zaragoza, Spain.

 

[jopsuk]

Ah, I'd forgotten about Hitachi. That's reassuring.

I'm only vaguely aware of CAF, do they have any passenger stock in the UK that I might have been on?

Heathrow Express 332s and Northern 333s were a joint venture between CAF and Siemens, built at CAF's factory. The NIR Class 3000 and 4000 units are CAF. IE bought class 29000 from CAF, and the Irish Mark 4 carriages are CAF as well (not related to BR Mark 4 at all). Edinburgh's new trams, and the replacement Midland Metro fleet have been ordered from them.

If you've been to Spain you'll almost certainly have used CAF built trains.

 

[Muzer]

Yes, I have been on a 332 - rather nice trains, though I suspect that also has something to do with the premium price (I was using the free inter-terminal shuttle, though).

 

[gordonthemoron]

The aire & wharfe valley units are lovely, pity about the 3+2 seating though

 

[Mikey C]

It would be one hell of a gamble to place such a large and high profile order to an operator with relatively little UK infrastructure, like CAF.

Hitachi at least have their UK assembly plant, but would they really have the production volumes to cope with IEP and Crossrail at the same time?

 

[A0]

And fantastic trains they are too. Shame that there's so little CAF rolling stock in the UK as it's actually very well built stock with a very nice and spacious interior.

The fact that Irish railways run on a 5'3" gauge rather than 4' 8.5" of mainland UK probably contributes to the 'spaciousness' in the same way alot of European stock seems spacious due to its larger loading gauge.

 

[transmanche]

The fact that Irish railways run on a 5'3" gauge rather than 4' 8.5" of mainland UK probably contributes to the 'spaciousness' in the same way alot of European stock seems spacious due to its larger loading gauge.

I know the irish track gauge is wider than standard gauge - but is their loading gauge wider too?

 

[A0]

The aire & wharfe valley units are lovely, pity about the 3+2 seating though

Which given they're being used on reasonably short distance commuter runs means that 3+2 seating is entirely appropriate.

Leeds - Skipton and Leeds Bradford are only 40 minute journeys at the most and I suspect it's better to seat more people on the commuter runs into Leeds and Bradford.

There are many places in the London area where 3+2 seating is commonplace for journeys of well over an hour.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Which given they're being used on reasonably short distance commuter runs means that 3+2 seating is entirely appropriate.

Leeds - Skipton and Leeds Bradford are only 40 minute journeys at the most and I suspect it's better to seat more people on the commuter runs into Leeds and Bradford.

There are many places in the London area where 3+2 seating is commonplace for journeys of well over an hour.

it's not suitable for fat gits like me

 

[A0]

I know the irish track gauge is wider than standard gauge - but is their loading gauge wider too?

I believe from looking around the web that the 3000s are between 5-10cm wider than a BR Cl 165 - I use the 165 as an example, because it is the unit most frequently cited on these boards as having restrictions on where they can work owing to their size.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it's not suitable for fat gits like me

I'll admit to the same challenge on LM's 350/2s - but Northampton's a much longer journey to Euston than Skipton - Leeds is.

 

[quantinghome]

Which given they're being used on reasonably short distance commuter runs means that 3+2 seating is entirely appropriate.

Leeds - Skipton and Leeds Bradford are only 40 minute journeys at the most and I suspect it's better to seat more people on the commuter runs into Leeds and Bradford.

There are many places in the London area where 3+2 seating is commonplace for journeys of well over an hour.

I remember reading that 3+2 seating was chosen because they wanted to attract us Northern commuters with the prospect of a seat. It hasn't quite worked out like that. Passenger densities (if not volume) into Leeds are now approaching South-East levels at peak times and we are getting used to standing. It's common for the middle seats to remain unoccupied on the busiest trains, people preferring to stand rather than share a seat with two other posteriors. The arrangement also means the aisle is too narrow for people to stand in, hence the crowding round the doors is even worse. Refurb to 2+2 would be an improvement.

 

[455driver]

The fact that Irish railways run on a 5'3" gauge rather than 4' 8.5" of mainland UK probably contributes to the 'spaciousness' in the same way alot of European stock seems spacious due to its larger loading gauge.

Track gauge is no guarantee of loading gauge, look at South Africas railways, narrow gauge and huge articulated locos.

Loading gauge is what matters, the USA has the same track gauge as us but a much bigger loading gauge.

 

[DarloRich]

It would be one hell of a gamble to place such a large and high profile order to an operator with relatively little UK infrastructure, like CAF.

Hitachi at least have their UK assembly plant, but would they really have the production volumes to cope with IEP and Crossrail at the same time?

Hitatchi WILL have their UK assembly plant - it aint built yet

 

[455driver]

Originally Posted by Mikey C
Hitachi at least have their UK assembly plant, but would they really have the production volumes to cope with IEP, Crossrail and warranty repairs when they all fall apart at the same time?

Post edited for accuracy!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Which given they're being used on reasonably short distance commuter runs means that 3+2 seating is entirely appropriate.

Leeds - Skipton and Leeds Bradford are only 40 minute journeys at the most and I suspect it's better to seat more people on the commuter runs into Leeds and Bradford.

There are many places in the London area where 3+2 seating is commonplace for journeys of well over an hour.

They are not suitable as the middle seat is not wide enoguh keeping you uncomfortably close to the person next to you. (ie rubbing against each other) so people stand, aisles too thin so stand around doors increasing dwell times. TPE interiors much better, less tables and they would be great for the 333s.

 

[fgwrich]

I know the irish track gauge is wider than standard gauge - but is their loading gauge wider too?

Not really no. The CAF C3K (3000) and 4CK (4000 Class) actually use the same standard CAF bodyshell as the 332 & 333s, just adapted for use in NI by increasing the width of the side steps. In theory, if you rebogied them and removed the wider sideboards, then im sure you could actually make them very easily work over here.

 

[jon0844]

Aw, I hope we're not stuck with falling-apart-at-the-seams Bombardier crap. Perhaps they'll get their act together a bit more by then, and it won't be too bad - S-stock has been rather nice if you ignore the teething problems, but obviously completely different trains that can't really be compared.

You mean those trains that operate from London to Buckinghamshire, via Derby?

Siemens does appear to be stretched at the moment, so it makes sense. I wonder, however, if there was a little 'nudge' from Government to ask them to do this - to make it easier to pick Bombardier without controversy.

Not that I'm saying Bombardier will definitely get the contract, but it must be pretty likely.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not that I'm saying Bombardier will definitely get the contract, but it must be pretty likely.

Don't worry, Bob Crow has already picked the winner. (from the BBC web site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23199082)

Responding to the announcement, Bob Crow, general secretary of rail union RMT said: "This is basically Siemens running up the white flag and admitting that if the dice aren't well and truly loaded in their favour, then they aren't interested."

"There is now no excuse for the Crossrail fleet not to be built in Britain, guaranteeing the future of train building in the nation that gave the railways to the world."

Actually it is not good news for the project to lose a key bidder.
And a Hitachi win could also meet Bob's demands.

 

[gordonthemoron]

and could Derby cope with the order? Might Bombardier build some of the units elsewhere? Such as in Germany