"Siding" outside Manchester Piccadilly

[mrbluelips]

There is a small bit of track in the middle of the throat of Piccadilly. I believe its a siding or some sort of loop but is only accessible from the terminal platforms at Piccadilly and not directly from platforms 13 and 14. Its situated almost in the middle of the five or six tracks in and out of Piccadilly.

I don't mean the Mayfield Loop.

Does anyone know what it is called and what it is used for? I never see a train on this bit of track and looking at the rails it doesn't appear to be used much.

 

[takno]

There is a small bit of track in the middle of the throat of Piccadilly. I believe its a siding or some sort of loop but is only accessible from the terminal platforms at Piccadilly and not directly from platforms 13 and 14. Its situated almost in the middle of the five or six tracks in and out of Piccadilly.

I don't mean the Mayfield Loop.

Does anyone know what it is called and what it is used for? I never see a train on this bit of track and looking at the rails it doesn't appear to be used much.

It's just called "Engine Siding" on the sectional appendix

 

[ainsworth74]

It's just called "Engine Siding" on the sectional appendix

Which, unless I miss my mark, gives us all we need to know about it's purpose. As far as I'm aware it was used by a mixture of station pilots (when they were a thing) and locomotives either coming off or going onto rakes of hauled coaches.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Which, unless I miss my mark, gives us all we need to know about it's purpose. As far as I'm aware it was used by a mixture of station pilots (when they were a thing) and locomotives either coming off or going onto rakes of hauled coaches.

Using the platform crossovers (is the one between 5 and 6 still there?)

 

[TheEdge]

If its called "Engine siding" it will have been simply just for loco release or the station pilot to hide in while waiting to do something. Most terminal stations had them and a small selection still do, although rarely used, Norwich for example has one, technically in use but never really used, in fact it was totally overgrown until a few months ago.

I guess the only time loco release is still needed in the UK is for the sleepers at their terminals. Personally I've never seen it done in the UK but saw it done a few times in Germany. Came into Munich, noticed a Taurus sat in a siding in the throat, my train drew in, before we'd even got off (I was in the rear coach) that Taurus was setting onto the rear of the train and by the time I reached the concourse the front Taurus was off and had moved forward a bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, DB still have station pilots, shunters and non-driving-trailer locomotive operation. Even with MUs, trains tend to be taken out of the station to the sidings, cleaned and serviced, then brought back in by a shunter, often riding on the coach-end footboard rather than in a cab. "An Gleis 5 wird fuer Sie bereitgestellt...."

 

[TheEdge]

Yes, DB still have station pilots, shunters and non-driving-trailer locomotive operation. Even with MUs, trains tend to be taken out of the station to the sidings, cleaned and serviced, then brought back in by a shunter, often riding on the coach-end footboard rather than in a cab. "An Gleis 5 wird fuer Sie bereitgestellt...."

As a UK driver who shunts with 08s I was taken aback when I saw some sort of coupled shunter come flying into the platforms at Munich with 4 shunters riding on the various steps and platforms!

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Iirc in the 80s and glorious days of 81/85/86/87 doing London - Piccadilly, they would pull into the platform and there would be the waiting loco for the return trip waiting where you describe, which would join the end of the train (be coupled up, and they'd uncouple the loco which had brought the train in). Train would depart for London shortly followed by terminating loco which would go back to the engine siding, or whizz off down to Longsight.

 

[Shrimper]

Using the platform crossovers (is the one between 5 and 6 still there?)

Yes; not sure when it was last used though. The most recent loco-hauled tours/specials into Picc have top and tailed.

The engine siding is fairly rarely used; though a 185 was in it last week ECS.

 

[edwin_m]

Iirc in the 80s and glorious days of 81/85/86/87 doing London - Piccadilly, they would pull into the platform and there would be the waiting loco for the return trip waiting where you describe, which would join the end of the train (be coupled up, and they'd uncouple the loco which had brought the train in). Train would depart for London shortly followed by terminating loco which would go back to the engine siding, or whizz off down to Longsight.

In fact (and at many other termini also) the loco against the buffers wouldn't wait for the train to clear the platform. It would set off as soon as the train started moving, cautiously following it along the platform and stopping at the signal while the train continued. This was allowed as long as it followed immediately - it couldn't follow later unless the starter signal was cleared, as another train might have been signalled into the platform meanwhile.

It struck me as rather dangerous when I saw it in the 70s, though I don't recall reading of any collisions. I understand it was banned sometime in the 80s when loco release was almost non-existent so any drivers required to do it probably wouldn't have had regular practice.

 

[Ianno87]

Iirc in the 80s and glorious days of 81/85/86/87 doing London - Piccadilly, they would pull into the platform and there would be the waiting loco for the return trip waiting where you describe, which would join the end of the train (be coupled up, and they'd uncouple the loco which had brought the train in). Train would depart for London shortly followed by terminating loco which would go back to the engine siding, or whizz off down to Longsight.

The practice described continued on XC loco hauled services right up to the early 2000s and the introduction of Voyagers.

Euston services went over to push pull operation with DVTs in the late 80s.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Iirc in the 80s and glorious days of 81/85/86/87 doing London - Piccadilly, they would pull into the platform and there would be the waiting loco for the return trip waiting where you describe, which would join the end of the train (be coupled up, and they'd uncouple the loco which had brought the train in). Train would depart for London shortly followed by terminating loco which would go back to the engine siding, or whizz off down to Longsight.

Even better if it was a class 40 being released having come into Manchester on a summer Saturday service from the east coast. Towards the end the driver would often show off to us 'spotters by blasting out of Piccadilly, the old type 4 whistling its way to Longsight.

 

[yorksrob]

The practice described continued on XC loco hauled services right up to the early 2000s and the introduction of Voyagers.

Euston services went over to push pull operation with DVTs in the late 80s.

I remember loco's running round at Reading in the early noughties on XC trains.

 

[Red18]

The Engine Siding is still used for the occasional re-platforming shunt.

 

[takno]

The Engine Siding is still used for the occasional re-platforming shunt.

It's shown up a few times in the signalling data. I'd say it gets used 2 or 3 times a week.

I've just added the signals into the map on traksy.uk

 

[47513 Severn]

As a UK driver who shunts with 08s I was taken aback when I saw some sort of coupled shunter come flying into the platforms at Munich with 4 shunters riding on the various steps and platforms!

We're going off topic a bit but I have always found the German approach to propelling ecs into termini rather unnerving. The shunter stands in the open gangway door of the rearmost carriage and controls the brakes by pulling a cord that opens a valve device attached to the brake pipe beneath him. I suppose it is actually safer than the hand signal method, as the shunter has direct control of the brakes, but it's still quite strange to watch.

I witnessed this at Hamburg Altona and Stuttgart Hbf last year so I guess it is still common practice.

 

[mrbluelips]

I was going to suggest that should the building of platforms 15 and 16 go ahead, part of the throat of Piccadilly may be remodelled and this section of track be remobved.

But if it's still used 2 or 3 times a week then maybe it will remain.

What's the other siding called, just adjacent to platform 1 at Piccadilly? It often has stored Pacers in or Stoneblowers.

 

[edwin_m]

I hope they have some kind of barrier across the gangway! Pull the cord a bit too hard and the train screeches to a halt, projecting the unfortunate individual out of the gangway as it does so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're going off topic a bit but I have always found the German approach to propelling ecs into termini rather unnerving. The shunter stands in the open gangway door of the rearmost carriage and controls the brakes by pulling a cord that opens a valve device attached to the brake pipe beneath him. I suppose it is actually safer than the hand signal method, as the shunter has direct control of the brakes, but it's still quite strange to watch.

I witnessed this at Hamburg Altona and Stuttgart Hbf last year so I guess it is still common practice.

I thought they typically communicated with the driver via a radio system (the radio is a fairly large device strapped to their chest), the cord is probably a backup.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope they have some kind of barrier across the gangway!

Nope. UK health and safety standards don't apply to much of Europe. As a result, being a DB shunter is actually quite a dangerous occupation.

 

[Shrimper]

What's the other siding called, just adjacent to platform 1 at Piccadilly? It often has stored Pacers in or Stoneblowers.

Eastern Spur or Holding Siding

 

[edwin_m]

I thought they typically communicated with the driver via a radio system (the radio is a fairly large device strapped to their chest), the cord is probably a backup.

I've seen this done with the shunter having something like a garden hose with trigger nozzle, presumably an air valve.

 

[GW43125]

Yes; not sure when it was last used though. The most recent loco-hauled tours/specials into Picc have top and tailed.

Last April I was on a special which came in with an 87 on the front, a 66 was set onto the back after we'd arrived. We passed it on the way in but I think it was to one side of the layout rather than in the middle.

 

[Shrimper]

Last April I was on a special which came in with an 87 on the front, a 66 was set onto the back after we'd arrived. We passed it on the way in but I think it was to one side of the layout rather than in the middle.

I recall seeing the 87 in the platform, just assumed it was top and tailed! Though it still wouldn't have used the shunting pointwork in 5/6 using this method of working.

 

[route101]

Nope. UK health and safety standards don't apply to much of Europe. As a result, being a DB shunter is actually quite a dangerous occupation.

Id of thought that in Western Europe this wouldnt of been allowed , eastern europe especially non eu countries ot would be still tolarated

 

[Crossover]

As a UK driver who shunts with 08s I was taken aback when I saw some sort of coupled shunter come flying into the platforms at Munich with 4 shunters riding on the various steps and platforms!

Off topic again a touch, but on a visit to the Stuttgart area a few years ago, I was pretty amazed to see the remote controlled shunt engines (at Böblingen I think it was). Shunter was either crawling around the loco like a spider or stood in the cess as the engine passed him!

 

[47513 Severn]

Id of thought that in Western Europe this wouldnt of been allowed , eastern europe especially non eu countries ot would be still tolarated

The reality is that much of what is commonly blamed on over zealous Health and Safety regulations or EU interference in this country is actually down to insurance requirements or just risk averse management. It is the influence of American litigation culture that has created this situation, rightly or wrongly.

In continental Europe the approach is much more (in my opinion) sensible and people are expected to use a degree of common sense and take some responsibility for themselves. Act stupidly and you will get hurt.

The German approach to many things took me by surprise at first. For example, take a trip on their classic Silberlinge carriages and watch the automatic doors in operation. When the train is ready to leave there is no hustle alarm, no flashing lights, no "stand clear of the doors" announcement. You will hear a slight click and the very heavy doors will slam shut with enough force to break an arm. A whole different culture and arguably a better one.

Edit: Someone has even posted a video. Is there anything that can't be found on YouTube (actually best not answer that!)
https://youtu.be/goBHTAwgPuE

 

[Bletchleyite]

The German approach to many things took me by surprise at first. For example, take a trip on their classic Silberlinge carriages and watch the automatic doors in operation. When the train is ready to leave there is no hustle alarm, no flashing lights, no "stand clear of the doors" announcement. You will hear a slight click and the very heavy doors will slam shut with enough force to break an arm. A whole different culture and arguably a better one.

Some have retrofitted hustle alarms, and the guard also always blows a whistle before turning the key - and at some stations you also get the "Bitte einsteigen" announcement, too. But I agree it's still culturally different.

It's that, by the way, that brought on the term I often use of the "Teutonic slam" of Desiro doors, which close with almost as much force! (Actually the UIC doors aren't that heavy, they are just balanced towards being closed and move really easily - it's actually easy to resist them closing if you are so inclined, though impossible to push them open against closing pressure once closed). I think I'd say a Class 153 door is worse - ever tried resisting one?

Interestingly the Swiss have modified their coaches with this type of door to power open/close with button operation, which closes them quite softly.

Version with hustle alarm (some had these fitted in the 1990s, even):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQkyuo8yIYE