Shutting the door in my face

[Cherry_Picker]

But on the four days out of five (or nine out of ten or whatever) when everybody gets on the train in the currently allotted dwell time but the train sits on the platform for two or three minutes because it is not time to leave yet will cause people to complain about the service being too slow.

If you are a passenger then you only have yourself to worry about.
If you are running the service then you have to accept that no matter what you do it will upset somebody, and usually you have to prioritise the needs of the many over the needs of the few.

 

[A-driver]

What is there to misunderstand ?


Whilst you seem to do everything you can within the constraints you have to work with, it's the constraints, or more particularly, the timetable which would seem to be the problem. If the timetable is so tight that passengers who are there, on the platform, are unable to get on the train before it leaves, then what is the point of that ? It's like saying you can have a train service that runs on time, but in order to achieve this, some passengers will not be allowed to board the train, despite being there, on the platform when the train arrives. It's almost as if the illusion of efficiency that is created by the trains running on or as close to on time as can be achieved is only possible by timetabling those trains with such short dwell times that access to those trains is denied to the very people those trains are supposed to serve.

You are loosing any sense of reality though. If the train sits there for longer then it delays not only that train but the ones behind it as well. Yes, ideally there would be longer dwell times but its not possible. If they run the frequency they do in the peaks then this is how it will be. Already they run more trains than the tracks can actually handle with an unrealistic timetable in places-there are examples in the WTT of 2 trains placed on the same bit of track at the same time, one will always run slightly late.

But still, you can't magic the extra time so trains must be dispatched as fast as possible. If you can't get on that particular train then there will be another in a couple of minutes so its not the end of the world.

 

[carriageline]

What is there to misunderstand ?


Whilst you seem to do everything you can within the constraints you have to work with, it's the constraints, or more particularly, the timetable which would seem to be the problem. If the timetable is so tight that passengers who are there, on the platform, are unable to get on the train before it leaves, then what is the point of that ? It's like saying you can have a train service that runs on time, but in order to achieve this, some passengers will not be allowed to board the train, despite being there, on the platform when the train arrives. It's almost as if the illusion of efficiency that is created by the trains running on or as close to on time as can be achieved is only possible by timetabling those trains with such short dwell times that access to those trains is denied to the very people those trains are supposed to serve.

People have said it countless times now, there is no extra time, no matter how you shuffle, reorganise, reanalyse and recalculate, you can't just add dwell time. There's no time in other timetables to allow it, infact there is no spare time at all. The railway is stuffed to the rafters with paths, if a trains late it will take another trains path, then what do you think happens to that train? You guessed it.

Just think, how many trains would you add 30 seconds too? Then add up how many minutes that is in the day, where are these coming from?

I bet the TOCs wish it was that easy.

 

[A-driver]

I bet the TOCs wish it was that easy.

That is exactly the issue with some on here-they think they have all the answers but forget that those who are paid to come up with ideas to solve these problems have already tried most options and then refuse to listen to reasons why their 'idea' won't work!

 

[carriageline]

That is exactly the issue with some on here-they think they have all the answers but forget that those who are paid to come up with ideas to solve these problems have already tried most options and then refuse to listen to reasons why their 'idea' won't work!

Oh how easy it is to just be a passenger! I suppose all the people with degrees, and paid a good salary, as you say, trying to solve these things, are all useless, as these lot can solve it because they get the train every day. They should pop on here and get advice off some of these lot, the railway would be brilliant tomorrow!!

 

[edwin_m]

In June's Modern Railways an interview with Tim Shoveller mentions that the number of people trying to board at "stations such as Earlsfield" is making it difficult to keep to timetable in the morning peak.

Strangely on a quick skim there is no mention of the fifth track proposals as discussed in the same magazine a few months back. Train lengthening (with Waterloo platform lengthening), extra trains, and ultimately Crossrail 2 are mentioned as possible capacity solutions.

 

[swt_passenger]

Strangely on a quick skim there is no mention of the fifth track proposals as discussed in the same magazine a few months back. Train lengthening (with Waterloo platform lengthening), extra trains, and ultimately Crossrail 2 are mentioned as possible capacity solutions.

As previously discussed, 5th track and Crossrail are 'either or' in the London and SE RUS. They won't build both. So if Tim Shoveller is mentioning Crossrail only that's presumably a bit of an indication of how they (both SWT and NR) see the relative likelihoods.

 

[oversteer]

Never mind getting on, I struggled to get off a LM train yesterday, just leaving as the doors were closing..

I couldn't get out of my seat there were so many people all exiting at once, and then I made it straight off. 2 seconds later I would have been on my way to the next stop !

 

[maniacmartin]

If more emphasis was placed on making sure people stood back and to the side to let others off before attempting to board themselves then the overall boarding procedure would be quicker. Of course the TOCs will never enforce this, in case they get a complaint.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh how easy it is to just be a passenger! I suppose all the people with degrees, and paid a good salary, as you say, trying to solve these things, are all useless, as these lot can solve it because they get the train every day. They should pop on here and get advice off some of these lot, the railway would be brilliant tomorrow!!

People aren't paid to focus on the best passenger experience from what I gather though, but how to reduce delay minutes as calculated via PPM, as that it financially better for them. TOCs exist to make money after all

 

[W230]

If the timetable is so tight that passengers who are there, on the platform, are unable to get on the train before it leaves, then what is the point of that ?

The point is that you are able to run as many trains as physically possible which helps alleviate this problem as you are getting peple on trains and out of the station. If you want trains to wait on stations longer then you run less trains. Maybe everyone gets on but in reality you will still have the same problem as there will be more people waiting for less trains.

I know it's not mainline but to give an example, the Victoria line runs up to 33tph in the peak (I believe). That means very limited dwell times at stations and sometimes the doors closing when not everyone is on. They could wait for everyone to get on (even if there was room) but then they could not run 33tph. The result would be the same number of people but waiting for less trains and those that they were waiting for would be more likely to be full because of the reduced frequency. That's why the platform staff like to remind passengers that the next train is less than a minute behind, to try to keep the service moving. Not that they listen.

Short of some fantasy of 20 car trains, the problem will remain - in fact even then it would remain as passengers will all still want to use the same set of doors to get on!

 

[swj99]

You are loosing any sense of reality though.

In what way ?

I previously said that it's almost as if the illusion of efficiency that is created by the trains running on or as close to on time as can be achieved, is only possible by timetabling those trains with such short dwell times that access to those trains is denied to the very people those trains are supposed to serve.

Are you suggesting this is not the case, despite the original post in this thread ?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1455140&postcount=1

 

[oversteer]

Maybe the solution is to add more platform exits and entrances, and try to centralise train stopping points between these exits, so not everybody tries to cluster round one set of doors.

Bit tough at terminus stations though!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In June's Modern Railways an interview with Tim Shoveller mentions that the number of people trying to board at "stations such as Earlsfield" is making it difficult to keep to timetable in the morning peak.

I take it this is why, with the new timetable all the up suburbans run a minute earlier than before as far as Raynes Park and then in their old times onwards?

 

[dcsprior]

Maybe the solution is to add more platform exits and entrances, and try to centralise train stopping points between these exits, so not everybody tries to cluster round one set of doors.

Can this be done with even just one entrance/exit point, depending on placement? East Croydon seems to as a result the ramps that take passengers on to the platform being at end further away from London: some passengers will walk up towards the London end in order to avoid the crowds when they get to London, but others won't - so overall, passengers are well spread out.

Bit tough at terminus stations though!

At King's Cross if you come down the escalators from the Mezzanine level, you're halfway along the platforms; similarly at Paddington there's an exit at both ends of the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe the solution is to add more platform exits and entrances, and try to centralise train stopping points between these exits, so not everybody tries to cluster round one set of doors.

Something to consider when building new stations, for sure.

 

[455driver]

with the new timetable all the up suburbans run a minute earlier than before as far as Raynes Park and then in their old times onwards?

Neither my guard or I noticed that for the first few trips on Monday!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst you seem to do everything you can within the constraints you have to work with, it's the constraints, or more particularly, the timetable which would seem to be the problem.

The problem is that the number of people who want to get in the front coach(es) cannot physically fit so they will be left on the platform!

On London suburban stuff the trains are all full before they get to New Malden/Raynes Park etc so the intending passengers will not be able to get on no matter how long the train sits there, its as simple as that.

 

[chuckles1066]

On London suburban stuff the trains are all full before they get to New Malden/Raynes Park etc so the intending passengers will not be able to get on no matter how long the train sits there, its as simple as that.

Unintentionally, I'm sure, but what does your message send out about the state of the UK rail network?

 

[edwin_m]

Can this be done with even just one entrance/exit point, depending on placement? East Croydon seems to as a result the ramps that take passengers on to the platform being at end further away from London: some passengers will walk up towards the London end in order to avoid the crowds when they get to London, but others won't - so overall, passengers are well spread out.

...but the new northern entrance and bridge at East Croydon will throw a spanner in the works!

The Victoria line has poor distribution of passengers along the train because the entrance is right at the same end at several of the main stations. Creating a second access at Kings Cross has probably helped a bit.

 

[swj99]

The problem is that the number of people who want to get in the front coach(es) cannot physically fit so they will be left on the platform!

Maybe we're talking about two different scenarios. I am talking about the situation outlined in the original post in this thread, whereas you seem to be talking about a scenario in which the front coaches of a train are full.

A LOT of people got off for some reason, more than normal, and this delayed us getting on. In fact, the guard shut the doors while people were still trying to board the train.........

A lot of people got off. That suggests to me that this would leave space on the train for a lot of people to get on.
As the OP said,

.........These were not people who had arrived late or not left enough time. They were there when the train pulled in.

The guard shut the doors while these people were still trying to board the train. A complaint was made to the dispatcher, who said it was due to company policy. Not because the train was full, but because of company policy.

Like I said, it sounds to me like a problem that could do with addressing.

 

[A-driver]

Like I said, it sounds to me like a problem that could do with addressing.

Not really-it just seems you are looking for problems.

Its all been explained already why its important to close doors as close to time as possible. Its also not that common for this to happen unless the train is full.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are plenty of other trains to catch when its as busy as this.

 

[grah2702]

At my local station a "crowd"getting on a train would consist of 2 or 3 people.
On a very busy day might even reach double figures.
Oh what an exciting life you southern commuters lead.

 

[jb]

The point is that you are able to run as many trains as physically possible which helps alleviate this problem as you are getting peple on trains and out of the station. If you want trains to wait on stations longer then you run less trains. Maybe everyone gets on but in reality you will still have the same problem as there will be more people waiting for less trains.

I know it's not mainline but to give an example, the Victoria line runs up to 33tph in the peak (I believe). That means very limited dwell times at stations and sometimes the doors closing when not everyone is on. They could wait for everyone to get on (even if there was room) but then they could not run 33tph. The result would be the same number of people but waiting for less trains and those that they were waiting for would be more likely to be full because of the reduced frequency. That's why the platform staff like to remind passengers that the next train is less than a minute behind, to try to keep the service moving. Not that they listen.

Short of some fantasy of 20 car trains, the problem will remain - in fact even then it would remain as passengers will all still want to use the same set of doors to get on!

This this this this. I can't think of examples on National Rail but plenty on the Underground where I could have got on but didn't because of dwell time. Nobody batters an eyelid there. I can't see why it should be different here, particularly in the peaks at stations attempting to run metro-type services.

 

[maniacmartin]

wouldn't worry about it too much. There are plenty of other trains to catch when its as busy as this.

But it isn't always the case that there are plenty of trains soon that go where you want to go. Take my local line, the London Overground East London line, as an example. Southbound from Canada Water there are trains every 3 minutes in peak, but if you missed a train to West Croydon, then it's actually 15 minutes for the next one. I'm sure similar situations exist at other stations too.

 

[A-driver]

But it isn't always the case that there are plenty of trains soon that go where you want to go. Take my local line, the London Overground East London line, as an example. Southbound from Canada Water there are trains every 3 minutes in peak, but if you missed a train to West Croydon, then it's actually 15 minutes for the next one. I'm sure similar situations exist at other stations too.

Get the next one and change to southern en-route.

 

[gswindale]

But it isn't always the case that there are plenty of trains soon that go where you want to go. Take my local line, the London Overground East London line, as an example. Southbound from Canada Water there are trains every 3 minutes in peak, but if you missed a train to West Croydon, then it's actually 15 minutes for the next one. I'm sure similar situations exist at other stations too.

That's still a pretty good frequency though.

I'd be happy with a 15 minute wait if I missed a train for whatever reason.
30 minutes+ is more of an issue though (as is the case out here in the wilds of Berkshire!)

 

[swj99]

Not really-it just seems you are looking for problems........

I don't know what gave you that idea. I'm not looking for problems. I am however, aware of the existence of the problem which was highlighted in post 1 of this thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=83908

Now I know we're told to arrive promptly and the doors must shut 30 seconds before departure for punctuality and safety reasons, but it does seem unreasonable, let alone unsafe to shut the doors as people are still trying to board.

The original poster also stated that this was not an isolated incident.

 

[ert47]

Get the next one and change to southern en-route.

Half the time, that doesn't work. I usually end up getting the next LO service at Sydenham.