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Shrewsbury to London through trains

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No great surprises then.
I agree, even if it is immensely disappointing.

The fact in 2026, a whole county can’t have a single direct rail service down to the nation’s capital, should be a source of the most immense shame and absurdity for all those bods sitting in swanky offices in Whitehall.

Let’s see if Avanti coming into public ownership or future timetable reconstructions as suggested in the letter by the ORR makes any difference.

I am sadly not holding my breath…
 
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The Planner

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Let’s see if Avanti coming into public ownership or future timetable reconstructions as suggested in the letter by the ORR makes any difference.

I am sadly not holding my breath…
Avanti being in public ownership won't make any difference. No major recasts are due either.
 

A S Leib

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The fact in 2026, a whole county can’t have a single direct rail service down to the nation’s capital, should be a source of the most immense shame and absurdity for all those bods sitting in swanky offices in Whitehall.
As annoying as it may be to be one of two or three English counties without a London service (London services passing Oakham don't currently seem to call there, and the Isle of Wight if counted separately), the entirety of Shropshire has a population not much larger than London service-less Barnsley and Huddersfield combined.

Shropshire may not have Herefordshire's direct London services, but a more frequent Birmingham service and better connections to Crewe feel like fair trade-offs towards London.
 

Harpo

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Shropshire may not have Herefordshire's direct London services, but a more frequent Birmingham service and better connections to Crewe feel like fair trade-offs towards London.
Shropshires got a decent hourly service to the capital. ;)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I rather assumed with 805s…
Avanti actually have the 805s for the route, as the fleet was ordered when Shrewsbury had a through service with 221s.

However, the DfT will have instructed Avanti (during Covid) to cut the Shrewsbury extension off to save money, and that stance hasn't changed.

I wouldn't put it past DfT to reinstate the service once Avanti is gone next year.

It's still often quicker changing at Crewe, anyway (thanks to TfW).
 

DaveyJones

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Avanti actually have the 805s for the route, as the fleet was ordered when Shrewsbury had a through service with 221s.
However, the DfT will have instructed Avanti (during Covid) to cut the Shrewsbury extension off to save money, and that stance hasn't changed.
I wouldn't put it past DfT to reinstate the service once Avanti is gone next year.
It's still often quicker changing at Crewe, anyway (thanks to TfW).
I believe an 805 went to Shrewsbury Once... I'll see if i can find the photo
 

dk1

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I believe an 805 went to Shrewsbury Once... I'll see if i can find the photo
It’s normally policy to clear them for all possible routes. We even tested 745s here in East Anglia on the Southend Victoria branch although there is next to no chance of using them on it.
 

pr1

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Blackpool was always going to be the "ginger step-child". Getting paths north of Preston when the physical track space is limited, let alone spaces in the timetable, is nigh-on impossible (look at the meagre crumbs given to Lumo).

HS2 isn't the saviour here, either, just because it might free up some space when it opens (physically and logistically) doesn't mean every bid on the WCML will suddenly become available!
 

A S Leib

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HS2 will open up capacity on the southern WCML but under current plans, not the northern WCML though.
Would running via Bescot be enough to avoid capacity issues, or is there too much going that way, through Wolverhampton and (especially pre-Midlands Rail Hub completion) New Street unless avoiding there?
 

Farigiraf

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I agree, even if it is immensely disappointing.

The fact in 2026, a whole county can’t have a single direct rail service down to the nation’s capital, should be a source of the most immense shame and absurdity for all those bods sitting in swanky offices in Whitehall.

Let’s see if Avanti coming into public ownership or future timetable reconstructions as suggested in the letter by the ORR makes any difference.

I am sadly not holding my breath…
First of all, the goal should be to make the rail network less London-centric, not more so. If a place is not at (or on the way to) a convenient point to terminate trains from London, then most of the time a well-timed connection with a train that does make sense to run through to London is the better solution.

Looking at nearby counties: Hereford is at the end of the Cotswold line (which is a sensible place to extend Oxford fasts), though even then most GWR trains turn at Malvern. Chester is on the way to North Wales and Holyhead, and also a convenient place to turn a Crewe express. Even Wrexham has its once-daily Avanti service which is a bit random but still just an easy extension of a Chester terminator. Other nearby counties are along a mainline. Shrewsbury happens to be at the end of a long unelectrified branch of the electified WCML, which wasn't convenient before bi-mode and battery technology became a thing.

If the Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury line was electrified (which it definitely would have been if town planners of Telford took things seriously) then I'm fairly confident that the Avanti service terminating at Wolves every hour would continue on to Shrewsbury. Wouldn't just be useful for Shropshire but also Aberystwyth, Newtown, etc. If it were a long-established service I think it'd probably be well used, and might make sense to give a go again using 805s (as long as there is capacity alongside WMT/TFW.

If the (relatively) light loadings along the North Wales Coast justifies Everos then a Shrewsbury service (with well-timed connections in all directions at Shrewsbury) does too. A once-a-day barely advertised Avanti service to a county with very low public transport usage, without much cheap Advances available due to the expectation that the train will anyway fill up through the West Midlands, still managing to carry an average of 50pax/day is pretty decent so a frequent, reliable service with a greater catchment would encourage quite a lot more usage. That's not to say that the current transfer at Birmingham International isn't perfectly adequate, but if it's a case of conveniently extending an existing service (unlike e.g. LNER to Skipton/Harrogate which is just London trains for the sake of it) then I don't see the problem.

This is all very different to a private operator running 4 services a day over winding freight lines through the WM suburbs using any path they can get (i.e. zero timed connections at SHR) though. I suspect most of the profitability relied on abstracting WM-London passengers (or even encouraging motorists to switch modes, which is not a bad thing if done right) by offering dirt-cheap fares to Walsall, Wolverhampton and Coleshill, with the Wrexham/Shropshire bit mainly being there for publicity and ORCATS raid purposes.
 
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Class15

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First of all, the goal should be to make the rail network less London-centric, not more so.
What an odd comment.

By “less London-centric”, presumably you mean that people’s journeys to where they actually want to go (ie London) are harder, but making journeys to other major cities easier?

Making the rest of the country better-off does not mean we need to disadvantage rail links into London.
 

AlterEgo

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What an odd comment.

By “less London-centric”, presumably you mean that people’s journeys to where they actually want to go (ie London) are harder, but making journeys to other major cities easier?

Making the rest of the country better-off does not mean we need to disadvantage rail links into London.
Indeed. We have a London centric network because the UK is a highly centralised country centred on London.
 

A S Leib

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then I'm fairly confident that the Avanti service terminating at Wolves every hour
They don't exist. Under the current (and next) timetable, every Wolverhampton to Euston service after 07:00 starts at Crewe or further north, and the same goes for every Euston to Wolverhampton service arriving before 20:00.
 

Farigiraf

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By “less London-centric”, presumably you mean that people’s journeys to where they actually want to go (ie London) are harder, but making journeys to other major cities easier?
That's not what's meant by London-centric. I'm specifically thinking of the many journeys avoiding London, most of which are currently made by car, that require a long and expensive detour via London to be done by rail at the moment. The few operators that do provide this service (XC, EMR, TPE) are ridiculously low on capacity.

Making the rest of the country better-off does not mean we need to disadvantage rail links into London.
A frequent 1-change option is always going to be a better use of capacity than 4 trains a day to the end of every branch line. With a decent quality transfer at a station (accessible and reliable) the only downside is just a feeling of minor inconvenience, though I suspect it's less convenient when one of the 4 direct trains get cancelled (fully or in part) with there being no convenient alternative.

And by the way, I did post about 2 paragraphs about how to deliver Shrewsbury a proper London service which makes your (presumably quickly posted after reading 1 sentence) comment particularly strange to read. I do hope it's easy enough to understand that it's not a zero-sum game though and I really don't see the point in debating whether opting for either of the two 'extremes' is practical.

There's anyway only a small number of places with London services where improving the local train service and transfer reliability would IMO be better (Beverley, Skipton, Pontefract to name three) - if there's a significant number of London passengers from these stations who would shift to driving if needing to change trains (without a notable journey time increase), then colour me surprised.

Most of these extensions are logical enough to keep, Blackpool (extension of a Preston terminator) or Middlesbrough (York terminator) for instance are both good ideas. But e.g. diverting one of the London-Holyhead services to Llandudno to give it a direct train to the city where everything happens raises a few questions about whether we want a rail network or something more akin to an airline.

The fact that London's one of the hardest cities to drive & park in does factor into the equation as well - I know quite a few people who only use the train to get to London for this exact reason, that's not to say it isn't the highest-demand city but things do also happen decently often in Manchester or Birmingham too, yet rail's mode share for long-distance travel is way below London. If other cities follow suit over time then there'll be even more demand by rail to secondary cities.

They don't exist. Under the current (and next) timetable, every Wolverhampton to Euston service after 07:00 starts at Crewe or further north, and the same goes for every Euston to Wolverhampton service arriving before 20:00.
Well then I guess it wouldn't work as well, though London-Scotland via Birmingham services don't have much through travel anyway so reworking it into 2 services (London-Shrewsbury and Birmingham-Scotland) wouldn't be that unpopular, even if it does require HS2 phase 1 to get the paths required for it. Good thing there's a 15-20 minute same platform transfer at International then.
 
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Harpo

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They don't exist. Under the current (and next) timetable, every Wolverhampton to Euston service after 07:00 starts at Crewe or further north, and the same goes for every Euston to Wolverhampton service arriving before 20:00.
The direct services from London to Wolverhampton are slower than a change at Stafford although the latter is often more expensive.

Unsurprising then that railheading at Stafford is a popular option, and a useful pointer to as why through services via the West Midlands failed - Repeatedly.
 

A S Leib

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The direct services from London to Wolverhampton are slower than a change at Stafford although the latter is often more expensive.
More expensive just looking at Avanti? Without checking, I'd still expect LNR Stafford to London tickets to be more than Wolverhampton to Euston due to flexible ones being valid via Wolverhampton, but not much more.
Unsurprising then that railheading at Stafford is a popular option, and a useful pointer to as why through services via the West Midlands failed - Repeatedly.
A point I think I've made before is that a service reversing at Crewe might work better for Shrewsbury in theory, but we're not in that constraint-free world. There's also three London journeys from Wellington and Telford for every five from Shrewsbury, which wouldn't be well-served via Crewe.
 

DaveyJones

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The direct services from London to Wolverhampton are slower than a change at Stafford although the latter is often more expensive.

Unsurprising then that railheading at Stafford is a popular option, and a useful pointer to as why through services via the West Midlands failed - Repeatedly.
How feasible would a Shrewsbury-intermediate stops-Oxley Chord-Stafford-Trent Valley-Euston be?
 

Harpo

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How feasible would a Shrewsbury-intermediate stops-Oxley Chord-Stafford-Trent Valley-Euston be?
Virgin (I think?) proposed that. Wasn’t it also to combine with another service at Stafford?

Rejected for performance reasons I think?
 

40129

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Virgin (I think?) proposed that. Wasn’t it also to combine with another service at Stafford?

Rejected for performance reasons I think?
It's a shame that the Wellington - Stafford line no longer exists as that would have provided a direct route from Shrewsbury and Telford (the town not Central station pre se) that would avoid the West Midlands conurbation and the need to reverse at either Stafford or Crewe
 

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