Shrewsbury <-> Manchester via Chester Routeing Question

[mikeb42]

Hello routeing experts.

Trainsplit can be made to offer straight Shrewsbury<->Manchester returns against itineraries including:

Shrewsbury->Crewe->Manchester (obvious)
Shrewsbury->Chester->Knutsford->Manchester (seems reasonable)
Shrewsbury->Chester->Crewe->Manchester (much further and not entirely reasonable)

But not:

Shrewsbury->Chester->Warrington Bank Quay->Manchester

This is despite there being direct trains from Chester->Manchester Piccadilly via this route.

The implication is that which of the direct trains you can catch from Chester to Piccadilly has a dependency on how you've (legitimately) got to Chester. Given that the tickets don't have any explicit operator or routeing restriction besides "Not via Wolverhampton" this seems... odd.

A bluffer's attempt at using the routeing guide hints at why the planners might be giving this result (the NC in map combination AW+NC+CL plus the "You must use all maps" thing), but am I missing something?

 

[yorkie]

Here's the diagnostics:

​

Shrewsbury to Manchester Oxford Road​

Mileage 76.41 (Shortest possible 63.90)​

​

Origin Routeing Point – Shrewsbury​

Terminus is a routeing point​

---

Destination Routeing Point – MANCHESTER GROUP​

Terminus is a routeing point​

---

Through Mapped Route​

Checking SHR-G49-CTR-G31-G20​

Off route at WARRINGTON GROUP​

Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2024 ==

This is despite there being direct trains from Chester->Manchester Piccadilly via this route.

The existence of through trains from an intermediate permitted point, to the destination routeing point, doesn't automatically validate the route; if you are not on a through train (from origin to destination), then it needs to either be a route that is valid under the shortest route rule, or a mapped route.

I believe this is an oversight; hopefully the relevant people at Rail Delivery Group will see it, and fix it.

But Trainsplit is correct not to issue tickets with this itinerary.

 

[mikeb42]

Thanks Yorkie. BTW, I only cited trainsplit specifically because I wouldn't bother trying to do anything remotely exotic with any of the "mainstream" vendors. Presumably they would all, at best, only offer the same routes anyway.

It's for a real journey I need to make next week rather than academic interest. Shrewsbury to Manchester, stopping off for a job in Chester on the way out but going via Crewe on the way back on the last train out of Manchester. A long rattle from Chester through Knutsford (or a bizarre loop all the way back down to Crewe) doesn't appeal.

Until recently with anything so obviously illogical I'd assume nobody would even bat an eyelid. I'd probably still trust 99.9% of guards to be sensible but the perceived hostility level of RPIs and gateline operatives now is such that I begin to wonder... I'll probably risk it anyway, on the understanding that it's on me in the unlikely event anyone even thinks to question it.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks Yorkie. BTW, I only cited trainsplit specifically because I wouldn't bother trying to do anything remotely exotic with any of the "mainstream" vendors. Presumably they would all, at best, only offer the same routes anyway.

It's for a real journey I need to make next week rather than academic interest. Shrewsbury to Manchester, stopping off for a job in Chester on the way out but going via Crewe on the way back on the last train out of Manchester. A long rattle from Chester through Knutsford (or a bizarre loop all the way back down to Crewe) doesn't appeal.

Until recently with anything so obviously illogical I'd assume nobody would even bat an eyelid. I'd probably still trust 99.9% of guards to be sensible but the perceived hostility level of RPIs and gateline operatives now is such that I begin to wonder... I'll probably risk it anyway, on the understanding that it's on me in the unlikely event anyone even thinks to question it.

The only penalty for travelling on a non-permitted route is to have to pay the difference to the cheapest fare that would have permitted the route you took.

It's ambiguous how this is to be calculated in situations where there isn't a through fare valid via the route you've chosen to take, but as a guess I would suggest that a split would be used as the basis of the comparison, for example Shrewsbury-Chester and Chester-Manchester.

The other thing you could do to aid your case is to obtain a itinerary via Chester and Crewe and then say you decided to travel directly because that seemed a rather roundabout route...

Whilst travel via both Chester and Crewe could be argued to be circuitous, there are occasions where it's fastest - usually when the route via Nantwich is closed due to engineering works. Some of the connections also work out pretty well, meaning it can be just as fast as going via Warrington.

 

[Krokodil]

but the perceived hostility level of RPIs and gateline operatives now is such that I begin to wonder

You won't have any of those sorts of issues at Chester gateline - no RPIs based there, and the handful TfW contracts from TIL have more leaky stations to target like Wrexham or Bangor - the automatic barriers may reject it but once they've seen your ticket the gateline staff will tap you through anyway. They're used to doing it for everyone travelling on a code 8A ticket who wants to use the toilets before their onward connection (Platform 4 toilets being refurbished, only remaining ones are on the concourse). No RPIs on TfW trains either, though the more convenient connection if you weren't breaking your journey anyway would be the Northern service to Leeds via Man Vic, I don't know if RPIs ever work those and what they're like.