Should you be allowed to sit in 1st class if 2nd class is full?

[dcbwhaley]

If moo95 has any overseas medical colleagues who might share his unfamiliarity with the UK fare system, can I suggest he appraises them of the non-validity of Oyster in First Class. And indeed remind them of the UK requirement to always* buy a ticket before travelling; a major cause for penalties and prosecutions; hassle our busy and valued doctors can do without!
*where facilities exist

mods note - split from here.

In the past I have moved into first class when second class was crowded and paid the difference to the guard.
Is that now illegal?

 

[Hadders]

In the past I have moved into first class when second class was crowded and paid the difference to the guard.
Is that now illegal?

You cannot do that on a service where there is no guard, or where Penalty Fares apply.

 

[spag23]

I'd have thought it always was illegal! Unless you got an official's permission first.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In the past I have moved into first class when second class was crowded and paid the difference to the guard.
Is that now illegal?

Probably the subject of another thread but personally, I feel it is wrong to criminalise somebody for sitting in first class, if empty and Standard is full, especially in peak times. Not saying it is right but should be at the discretion of the guard rather than make it a criminal offence.

And the inconsistency: I have seen many guards/OBS/conductors overlook passengers sitting in first class and not bat an eyelid

 

[jon0844]

Who would pay for first class if anyone could go there if the train was busy?

And how do you know the people not being checked don't have first class tickets? And if they don't, does not being checked mean it's okay to be there? The same as seeing a gateline open and walking through without buying a ticket - then saying 'if they can't be bothered to check my ticket, I'm not paying'?

 

[6Gman]

In the past I have moved into first class when second class was crowded and paid the difference to the guard.
Is that now illegal?

Yes, if without prior permission.

 

[NoRoute]

I'd say it depends.... on stopping commuter and metro services where journeys are short and standing time limited then probably not, but on a long distance service like cross country or intercity, where standing times could be excessive and physically unacceptable then I'd say yes, because it isn't reasonable to expect people to stand for extended periods.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If people would be left behind yes. Purely to get a seat no.

 

[NoRoute]

If people would be left behind yes. Purely to get a seat no.

Good to see customer service alive and well in the rail industry.... maybe if we make all the passengers uncomfortable enough they will go away!

 

[Darandio]

Good to see customer service alive and well in the rail industry.... maybe if we make all the passengers uncomfortable enough they will go away!

Who says it's a rail industry viewpoint?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good to see customer service alive and well in the rail industry.... maybe if we make all the passengers uncomfortable enough they will go away!

I don't work in the industry. If you want to guarantee a seat reserve one.

 

[ComUtoR]

maybe if we make all the passengers uncomfortable enough they will go away!

Maybe we should remove first class.

 

[skyhigh]

I'd say it depends.... on stopping commuter and metro services where journeys are short and standing time limited then probably not, but on a long distance service like cross country or intercity, where standing times could be excessive and physically unacceptable then I'd say yes, because it isn't reasonable to expect people to stand for extended periods.

So say a train leaving King's Cross for Leeds is full with all seats taken - standard class passengers get all the empty first class seats. Train stops at Stevenage where I want to board with an Anytime First Class Open return. I didn't book a seat reservation as I wasn't sure what time I'd want to travel. Should I have to stand simply because I didn't board at the origin station?

If I couldn't get a seat because they were full of Standard class passengers, would I bother paying for First class again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe we should remove first class.

I think there's a very solid argument for removing it on commuter and local trains, and some TOCs have e.g. Chiltern and GA. But it has value on long distance services.

 

[AM9]

If people would be left behind yes. Purely to get a seat no.

If they would otherwise be left behind, they could stand in 1st class, there wouldn't be a need to sit. If questioned, I think that would be a reasonable compromise that might be allowed exceptionally.

 

[43172]

I'd say it depends.... on stopping commuter and metro services where journeys are short and standing time limited then probably not, but on a long distance service like cross country or intercity, where standing times could be excessive and physically unacceptable then I'd say yes, because it isn't reasonable to expect people to stand for extended periods.

On commuter and metro services you could question if First Class should even be present at all and would be better off not having it advertised, leaving it permanetly declassified.

On long distance Intercity services a part could be declassified, with a policy of using tables of 4 to draw a line across the carriage for what can be left unreserveable, with a note in the digital seat reservation stating that it may be declassified if needed (based on an 80x as an example), or if needed sticking paper signs on the window so customer hosts know who has a first class ticket and who doesn't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To answer the question, absolutely not, if you ask me. On many services, the primary benefit is somewhere far less likely to be crowded on busy trains. If you open it to all when standard class is busy, that renders that whole purpose as pointless.

 

[NoRoute]

So say a train leaving King's Cross for Leeds is full with all seats taken - standard class passengers get all the empty first class seats. Train stops at Stevenage where I want to board with an Anytime First Class Open return. I didn't book a seat reservation as I wasn't sure what time I'd want to travel. Should I have to stand simply because I didn't board at the origin station?

If I couldn't get a seat because they were full of Standard class passengers, would I bother paying for First class again?

That's a fair point, but conversely what if a passenger has paid a standard fare which is still a substantial amount of money, gets on at Kings Cross for Leeds, only to find all the standard seats taken, but plenty free in first class. If no standard class seats become available, should the passenger be expected to stand all the way to Leeds?

If a standard class passenger couldn't get a seat while empty seats were available in first, why would they bother taking the train again? Wouldn't it make more sense and provide much better comfort to simply get in the car and drive up the M1? Or even take a coach.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Good to see customer service alive and well in the rail industry.... maybe if we make all the passengers uncomfortable enough they will go away!

If they don't want to stand they always have the option of buying a 1st Class ticket. As for customer service, what about customer service for those who do have a 1st Class ticket?

If a standard class passenger couldn't get a seat while empty seats were available in first, why would they bother taking the train again? Wouldn't it make more sense and provide much better comfort to simply get in the car and drive up the M1? Or even take a coach.

I don't know why they do but they do. I used to travel to London on a Sunday evening from the North West. I would often have a 1st Class carriage pretty much to myself while people were sitting on the floor in Standard. The absolutely stupid thing was a 1st Advance on the train I used to catch wasn't that much more than a Standard one so I can't say I had much sympathy.

 

[NoRoute]

I don't know why they do but they do. I used to travel to London on a Sunday evening from the North West. I would often have a 1st Class carriage pretty much to myself while people were sitting on the floor in Standard.

A few put up with it, but most people aren't on the train at all, they're in their car. Train travel is only a low fraction of total journeys, and poor service like this, below that offered even by a budget coach is unlikely to help the railways.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think there's a very solid argument for removing it on commuter and local trains, and some TOCs have e.g. Chiltern and GA. But it has value on long distance services.

But the problem (and I suspect it was the case with the OP in the original thread as they were using oyster but sitting in 1st) is trains that call at station is commuter areas but are also long distance services. EG I guess a Weymouth origin SWR service stopping at Clapham Jct, or en ex Hastings SR train stopping at East Croydon - people might fancy paying for 1st to or from weymouth or Bexhill - London say, but be denied that choice as people use it as a commuter train in the oyster /london 'metro' area.

This is never an easy one to fix.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think 1st class should be abolished. We don't insist that everyone should only drive the bottom of the range car, and we shouldn't have only standard class on trains.

I can live with metro services only having standard class but as for 'commuter' services I think it should be retained. Otherwise we'd be abolishing 1st class on services like Kings Lynn to London, Milton Keynes to London, what do you do about Reading - abolish 1st class because commuters use the service?

 

[hexagon789]

I can live with metro services only having standard class but as for 'commuter' services I think it should be retained. Otherwise we'd be abolishing 1st class on services like Kings Lynn to London, Milton Keynes to London, what do you do about Reading - abolish 1st class because commuters use the service?

Most commuter services outside London and the Home Counties, South East and South Coast have not had First Class accommodation since the 1970s when a widespread declassification of First Class in low-density DMUs on the LMR, ScR and ER (exceot units based at Cambridge depot) occurred. Many services electrified before that lost it even earlier - The "Blue Train" network in Glasgow for instance.

I would just get rid of it on any local/commuter service that still has it tbh, overall seating capacity is more important.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes to London

Wouldn't see an issue with abolishing it on LNR services. It's a sham anyway, other than on the /2s Standard is more comfortable. No different to Chiltern. If anyone really wanted it, proper 1st (and SP) are available on Avanti.

what do you do about Reading - abolish 1st class because commuters use the service?

Clearly long distance services would need to keep it, commuters on those routes could use it if they wanted.

 

[Hadders]

Most commuter services outside London and the Home Counties, South East and South Coast have not had First Class accommodation since the 1970s when a widespread declassification of First Class in low-density DMUs on the LMR, ScR and ER (exceot units based at Cambridge depot) occurred. Many services electrified before that lost it even earlier - The "Blue Train" network in Glasgow for instance.

I would just get rid of it on any local/commuter service that still has it tbh, overall seating capacity is more important.

Fist Class still exists on SWR, GWR, LNR, Thameslink, Greater Anglia. What is a local/commuter service = are you including Cambridge, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Didcot etc in that list?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fist Class still exists on SWR, GWR, LNR, Thameslink, Greater Anglia. What is a local/commuter service = are you including Cambridge, Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Didcot etc in that list?

If we use Chiltern as a benchmark:

LNR: Abolish entirely other than Crewe semifast, on that refurbish some dedicated units with proper 2+1 1st, or if that's too operationally awkward either get rid of it there too or declassify other than on Crewe services.
Thameslink: Declassify and take doors off, just keep it as a "more comfortable seats nominally for people going further" area. Self-policing as e.g. people starting at Bedford/Brighton can sit there and then it won't be available to others. Half of it already is that anyway!
Greater Anglia: only the IC FLIRTs will have it anyway once the fleet replacement is complete
GWR: 80x services only, which is already the case, the EMUs are Standard only
Thameslink: Only on services to Weymouth and Salisbury/Exeter. On 450s, convert to Standard or declassify with doors removed. On 444s declassify when they work anything other than a Weymouth. On 458s do not install to start with. Self-policing as e.g. people starting at Bedford/Brighton can sit there and then it won't be available to others.
Southern/Southeastern: declassify and remove any doors most if not all of it is the same as Standard anyway
TfW: Manchester-Cardiff and "WAG Express" only, otherwise declassify if present
ScotRail: keep on Inter7City services only, remove on all other services including Glasgow-Edinburgh EMUs
Chiltern: declassify on LHCS, already not there on other services. LHCS hasn't got long to go anyway.
TPE: Consider declassifying where TPE are operating stopping services basically on behalf of Northern. Keep elsewhere.

Keep all 1st on:
LNER
Avanti

Due to the reduced number of First Class tickets around as a result of this, it should be easily possible to purchase an upgrade to an existing Standard ticket at any sales channel, priced commercially as the relevant TOC wishes, or 1st could even be considered an "Advances and upgrades only" product with the base fare set all Standard only.

 

[BJames]

That's a fair point, but conversely what if a passenger has paid a standard fare which is still a substantial amount of money, gets on at Kings Cross for Leeds, only to find all the standard seats taken, but plenty free in first class. If no standard class seats become available, should the passenger be expected to stand all the way to Leeds?

If a standard class passenger couldn't get a seat while empty seats were available in first, why would they bother taking the train again? Wouldn't it make more sense and provide much better comfort to simply get in the car and drive up the M1? Or even take a coach.

Thing is that you know you're getting a place on the train not necessarily a seat unless you've reserved a seat - and if you can't get that for whatever reason then there are some TOCs that give you the money back (with or without an endorsement on the ticket in some instances) - e.g. see GWR (I have successfully claimed from them before) - perhaps they should all offer this service. Likely would require endorsement to avoid being abused.

If you want to sit in first, buy a first class ticket - you can always upgrade your ticket on board (on most TOCs? Are there any intercity that don't allow on board?) - agree with @Bletchleyite that it should be declassified if people are actually being left behind. This is particularly annoying when EMR deploys their 7 car 222s, which have 3 full first class carriages. Although a month or so ago the TM declassified first on our 5-car service and there were seats available in standard in the front carriage - which was silly. A lot of people buy first class tickets for the environment to allow them to work/have a more relaxed journey and are willing to pay for the privilege. I agree with GA's decision to scrap it on West Anglia and other routes though.

 

[NoRoute]

If you want to sit in first, buy a first class ticket

People want to sit in standard class, the issue is they cannot and from that, how long it is reasonable to expect people to stand in standard class before they get offered a seat, any seat that is available.

 

[Llanigraham]

That's a fair point, but conversely what if a passenger has paid a standard fare which is still a substantial amount of money, gets on at Kings Cross for Leeds, only to find all the standard seats taken, but plenty free in first class. If no standard class seats become available, should the passenger be expected to stand all the way to Leeds?

If a standard class passenger couldn't get a seat while empty seats were available in first, why would they bother taking the train again? Wouldn't it make more sense and provide much better comfort to simply get in the car and drive up the M1? Or even take a coach.

My understanding is that your ticket is to TRAVEL, not neccessarily to have a seat.

 

[6Gman]

That's a fair point, but conversely what if a passenger has paid a standard fare which is still a substantial amount of money, gets on at Kings Cross for Leeds, only to find all the standard seats taken, but plenty free in first class. If no standard class seats become available, should the passenger be expected to stand all the way to Leeds?

Approach the Train Manager.

If he grants you permission to sit there, fine. If he doesn't ask about an upgrade.

But, ultimately, if you want to sit in First Class you need a First Class ticket.