Should XC's via Doncaster trains run via Leeds instead?

[Esker-pades]

The Doncaster to York link is also pretty useful. Otherwise, you're left with 1tph London - Newcastle/Edinburgh and 1tp2h London - York stopper.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This might be heresy but, assuming the TPE and LNER enhancements come off, I'm increasingly of the view that one of the XC services per hour up the ECML should terminate at York. I would propose the current Newcastle terminator personally. There should be more than enough capacity between York and Newcastle provided by TPE, LNER and the remaining XC service and you then have to travel to south of Birmingham until you find a station that loses a direct link to Newcastle as a result of that change. But it does free back up some capacity on the ECML north of York (which is an increasingly crowded railway), reduces demand on XC's fleet (it's a two hour round trip with lay over time in the middle!) and probably helps strengthen resilience as it avoids XC services potentially either importing delays onto the ECML or delayed being exported from the ECML.

But like I say, I realise that this is close to heresy so I'll retreat to my bunker to ride out the storm...

If you cut off the Newcastle terminator, please extend it to Guildford at the southern end to provide a regular fast service down the NDL. There is already one or two a day, but this could be really lucrative for XC and make NDL Reading to Guildford passengers journeys much much faster. Maybe insert a stop at Wokingham if that but Guildford could really do with a regular XC service.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you cut off the Newcastle terminator, please extend it to Guildford at the southern end to provide a regular fast service down the NDL. There is already one or two a day, but this could be really lucrative for XC and make NDL Reading to Guildford passengers journeys much much faster. Maybe insert a stop at Wokingham if that but Guildford could really do with a regular XC service.

There’s only one XC each way per day, and the general consensus has usually been that they won’t survive the GWR 3 tph service. The 2016 XC consultation had already proposed removing the morning Guildford starter to use the unit for an earlier service on the Southampton route.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There’s only one XC each way per day, and the general consensus has usually been that they won’t survive the GWR 3 tph service. The 2016 XC consultation had already proposed removing the morning Guildford starter to use the unit for an earlier service on the Southampton route.

Maybe you could cancel the GWR 3tph for the moment,seeming as they're still running into the problem of the Reigate level crossing and use the path for the XC Reading to Guildford. If they wanted to expand service on the Southampton route and elsewhere, they could just order some new tri-mode 125mph multiple units from Bombardier.

 

[xotGD]

One problem with Leeds - Sheffield is that journey planners automatically stuff passengers onto the XC service rather than the Northern service that it overtakes. I normally opt for the 158 for a more pleasant journey but most folk won't even be aware of the service.

 

[Killingworth]

XC serves a lot of local markets with conflicting.priorities. My most frequent trips by XC are from Sheffield to Leeds or Newcastle. For Newcastle I'd always choose via Doncaster because it's about 20 minutes quicker, however returning from Newcastle the trains can leave less than 10 minutes apart. 2 tph is fine but 10 minute and then 50 minute waits can be very frustrating!

 

[thenorthern]

A couple of years ago I think CrossCountry mentioned they would like to run all their services to the North East/Scotland through Leeds but there isn't the capacity for it.

 

[xotGD]

A couple of years ago I think CrossCountry mentioned they would like to run all their services to the North East/Scotland through Leeds but there isn't the capacity for it.

An aspiration to extend journey times. Very passenger friendly.

 

[Iskra]

An aspiration to extend journey times. Very passenger friendly.

For many passengers, the journey would probably be quicker via London anyway.

 

[VT 390]

If the stock could be found then could the Reading to Newcastle service run as 8 coaches to Sheffield then divide with 4 going to Leeds and 4 to Newcastle via Doncaster, this would mean Leeds to Sheffield fast would be 2tph XC plus the Northern service which could call at meadowhall and Leeds would have 2tph to Birmingham which is one of the busiest XC routes.

 

[Killingworth]

If the stock could be found then could the Reading to Newcastle service run as 8 coaches to Sheffield then divide with 4 going to Leeds and 4 to Newcastle via Doncaster, this would mean Leeds to Sheffield fast would be 2tph XC plus the Northern service which could call at meadowhall and Leeds would have 2tph to Birmingham which is one of the busiest XC routes.

Doubt the stock would be available but splits are potentially problematic, most particularly when one of the halves is not close to time and requires platform space waiting for the other.

That said Leeds-Sheffield by XC takes about 40 minutes for a little over 35 miles. Northern takes nearer 55 minutes. I'm sure a second hourly quick train would be appreciated.

 

[30907]

Leeds-Sheffield by XC takes about 40 minutes for a little over 35 miles. Northern takes nearer 55 minutes. I'm sure a second hourly quick train would be appreciated.

Isn't that in the pipeline (via Westgate)?

 

[thenorthern]

An aspiration to extend journey times. Very passenger friendly.

True although for CrossCountry serving the larger market that Leeds is compared to Doncaster is probably more more of a net benefit overall.

 

[VT 390]

Isn't that in the pipeline (via Westgate)?

Yes, the Northern Nottingham to Leeds service will divert via Westgate. However it will most likely only be a 2 coach class 195 service so does not provide much additional capacity especially as Nottingham passengers will already be on it by the time it arrives at Sheffield.

 

[VT 390]

True although for CrossCountry serving the larger market that Leeds is compared to Doncaster is probably more more of a net benefit overall.

But by running both XC's via Leeds you do benefit Leeds and Wakefield passengers but inconvenience all those from York, Darlington, Durham and Newcastle plus places which connect to the Doncaster service by removing the faster service to Birmingham.

 

[Iskra]

Yes, the Northern Nottingham to Leeds service will divert via Westgate. However it will most likely only be a 2 coach class 195 service so does not provide much additional capacity especially as Nottingham passengers will already be on it by the time it arrives at Sheffield.

Will anything replace that service on the Hallam line?

 

[VT 390]

Will anything replace that service on the Hallam line?

Yes, Northern will continue to have 2 semi-fast trains per hour and 1 stopping from Sheffield to Leeds. The service which previously ran to Nottingham will instead be extended to Lincoln via Retford.

 

[Iskra]

Yes, Northern will continue to have 2 semi-fast trains per hour and 1 stopping from Sheffield to Leeds. The service which previously ran to Nottingham will instead be extended to Lincoln via Retford.

Perfect, so there will be a net gain of 2 carriages per hour between Sheffield and Leeds. When does that start?

 

[Glenn1969]

It's also supposed to start at Bradford and I am yet to see a start date. Could it be as late as May 2020? I know they are doing capacity work at Leeds station but that won't be finished until 2021

 

[Iskra]

Well it’s great news whenever it comes to fruition. However, I can see a 2 car DMU linking Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield and Nottingham suffering from TPE syndrome in both getting full very quickly and becoming delay-prone.

 

[xotGD]

Well it’s great news whenever it comes to fruition. However, I can see a 2 car DMU linking Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield and Nottingham suffering from TPE syndrome in both getting full very quickly and becoming delay-prone.

If Northern are short of units this service would be a good choice for loco and stock.

 

[VT 390]

If the Northern Bradford to Nottingham service gets overcrowded could 3 or 6 carriage class 185's be used once TPE does not need them all?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, Northern will continue to have 2 semi-fast trains per hour and 1 stopping from Sheffield to Leeds. The service which previously ran to Nottingham will instead be extended to Lincoln via Retford.

If they've got any sense, they'll stop one of the semi-fasts at Normanton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Northern are short of units this service would be a good choice for loco and stock.

Apart from the need to run round at Leeds (unless you top&tail, or use DVTs or the troublesome DBSOs)...

One thing that seems to have been missed (unless I missed it) is that running the second service via Leeds if paths allowed wouldn't necessarily mean sacrificing Doncaster. The Doncaster services already run via Sheffield and Mexborough to get there, and there's a perfectly good railway in place to rejoin the previous route at South Elmsall/Moorthorpe. Yes it'd extend journey times but would serve more people. It'd also stop the service being overrun by Leeds to Sheffield pax, as they'd have to pay the higher "via Doncaster" fare.

 

[Killingworth]

Apart from the need to run round at Leeds (unless you top&tail, or use DVTs or the troublesome DBSOs)...

One thing that seems to have been missed (unless I missed it) is that running the second service via Leeds if paths allowed wouldn't necessarily mean sacrificing Doncaster. The Doncaster services already run via Sheffield and Mexborough to get there, and there's a perfectly good railway in place to rejoin the previous route at South Elmsall/Moorthorpe. Yes it'd extend journey times but would serve more people. It'd also stop the service being overrun by Leeds to Sheffield pax, as they'd have to pay the higher "via Doncaster" fare.

As a user of the service between Sheffield and Newcastle I opt for the trains via Doncaster if possible. They're quicker by 20 minutes than those via Leeds.

However if going further north I'd be choosing the Leeds route to avoid the need to change.

Now TPE are to run from Leeds to Scotland it no longer makes sense to stop the faster XC service at Newcastle. Users from Scotland to York travelling to stations from Sheffield and beyond are not well served by having to drag round via Leeds.

 

[VT 390]

Now TPE are to run from Leeds to Scotland it no longer makes sense to stop the faster XC service at Newcastle. Users from Scotland to York travelling to stations from Sheffield and beyond are not well served by having to drag round via Leeds.

Why would you want some XC services not to call at Newcastle as this is the largest place they serve between Leeds and Edinburgh.

 

[ainsworth74]

Why would you want some XC services not to call at Newcastle as this is the largest place they serve between Leeds and Edinburgh.

They mean terminate at Newcastle, as in they should continue beyond to Scotland. Not that they should omit the stop.

 

[30907]

Why would you want some XC services not to call at Newcastle as this is the largest place they serve between Leeds and Edinburgh.

Think he means terminate not call. Serve Scotland via Donny not Leeds. SNAP!

.

One thing that seems to have been missed (unless I missed it) is that running the second service via Leeds if paths allowed wouldn't necessarily mean sacrificing Doncaster. The Doncaster services already run via Sheffield and Mexborough to get there, and there's a perfectly good railway in place to rejoin the previous route at South Elmsall/Moorthorpe. Yes it'd extend journey times but would serve more people. It'd also stop the service being overrun by Leeds to Sheffield pax, as they'd have to pay the higher "via Doncaster" fare.

It would then be considerably slower.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I said as much in the post you quoted. But several posters were emphasising the importance of the Doncaster stop so I was pointing out that it would be possible to serve both Donny and Leeds and thus serve more people. Though XC would need sensibly-sized trains even more then!

 

[VT 390]

I said as much in the post you quoted. But several posters were emphasising the importance of the Doncaster stop so I was pointing out that it would be possible to serve both Donny and Leeds and thus serve more people. Though XC would need sensibly-sized trains even more then!

Though it may be possible to serve both Doncaster and Leeds it would increase the chances of delays on the XC services as currently if there problems through Leeds or Doncaster the other route is usually not to bad. Also even though you would benefit lots of Leeds passengers you would probably be in convincing even more with all passengers from north of York having much longer journey times to Birmingham.
A better way to give Leeds services more capacity would be to have all Leeds services as HST's (using off lease sets from GWR fitted with power doors) and then if/when XC order new stock have them built as a minimum of 8 carriage sets.