Should Willesden Junction be upgraded and linked to OOC

[Meerkat]

I am not really convinced by the new stations proposed on the West London line and and Richmond branch (neither whether they will actually get built nor whether they are effective walking connections).
Shouldn’t Willesden Junction be upgraded and a direct high capacity people mover be built from there to OOC, to massively enhance local connections as well as access to HS2?
I am thinking adding platforms on fast and slow WCML and West London to MK lines, and a new larger concourse.
Cost is of course an issue, with major concern about enforced scope creep - creating demand that forces lengthening of trains and platforms from Clapham Junction and West Hampstead etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. Just do Euston ASAP.

 

[gordonthemoron]

aside from connecting to Crossrail, which may happen in anycase, what's the point?

 

[Aictos]

No. Just do Euston ASAP.

For once, I’m in total agreement however it needs to be managed right because no point in rushing and you end up having to spend longer putting right what should have been done right in the first place.

 

[Meerkat]

No. Just do Euston ASAP.

I wasn’t planning on it being an alternative to Euston but to create the most opportunities and incentives for passengers to use rail services. Offer Clapham-Willesden-OOC-HS2 as an all train alternative to lugging your luggage through the underground, for example.
The speed of HS2 makes many journeys viable that are currently slow and inconvenient via LU.

 

[randyrippley]

I wasn’t planning on it being an alternative to Euston but to create the most opportunities and incentives for passengers to use rail services. Offer Clapham-Willesden-OOC-HS2 as an all train alternative to lugging your luggage through the underground, for example.
The speed of HS2 makes many journeys viable that are currently slow and inconvenient via LU.

Why stop at Clapham? Why not turn the West London Line into "Thameslink West" with all the WCML trains being routed through to south coast terminii? Anyone wanting Euston could change at OOC or Willesden, while Euston station could be bulldozed and redeveloped

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why stop at Clapham? Why not turn the West London Line into "Thameslink West" with all the WCML trains being routed through to south coast terminii? Anyone wanting Euston could change at OOC or Willesden, while Euston station could be bulldozed and redeveloped

What is this obsession with getting rid of Euston? Like the south WCML commuter services onto Crossrail, nobody wants it. It's pure crayonista.

The reason Thameslink works is because it directly serves the heart of London commuterland, the City. The Southern service down the WLL is popular, sure, but it is not a second Thameslink, nor will it ever be. It'd stand a second TPH, but not the entire south WCML local service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why stop at Clapham? Why not turn the West London Line into "Thameslink West" with all the WCML trains being routed through to south coast terminii? Anyone wanting Euston could change at OOC or Willesden, while Euston station could be bulldozed and redeveloped

I’m presuming you meant to put a

 

[randyrippley]

I’m presuming you meant to put a

Don't give it away yet....

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Realistically if we had some form of 'rapid link' between Old Oak (Chiltern, HS2, Heathrow, GWR) and Willesden Junction (LO, Southern, perhaps LNWR type local stuff, Bakerloo) then we are talking about a significant out-of-London hub. I would argue very much in favour of it. No daft re-routing of the West London Line to loop around onto the Richmond - Stratford; and no need to build Crossrail round to get to Milton Keynes or Watford. With frequencies already projected of every 6 minutes (see the relevant Route Utilisation Strategy documents) between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush, there's definitely options.

Assuming the line is opened up to West Hampstead and Brent Cross, you could further link in platforms at Bashley Road for the Orbital stuff.

 

[MarkyT]

Realistically if we had some form of 'rapid link' between Old Oak (Chiltern, HS2, Heathrow, GWR) and Willesden Junction (LO, Southern, perhaps LNWR type local stuff, Bakerloo) then we are talking about a significant out-of-London hub. I would argue very much in favour of it. No daft re-routing of the West London Line to loop around onto the Richmond - Stratford; and no need to build Crossrail round to get to Milton Keynes or Watford. With frequencies already projected of every 6 minutes (see the relevant Route Utilisation Strategy documents) between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush, there's definitely options.

Assuming the line is opened up to West Hampstead and Brent Cross, you could further link in platforms at Bashley Road for the Orbital stuff.

Something like this perhaps:

 

[Eddd]

Maybe this could be part of a larger 'DLR' to serve the redevelopment of the area. It seems like Park Royal would benefit from better transport options if it is to become more intensively developed.

 

[Meerkat]

Maybe this could be part of a larger 'DLR' to serve the redevelopment of the area. It seems like Park Royal would benefit from better transport options if it is to become more intensively developed.

This is the scope creep I was worried about!!
Start with the minimum needed for transfers - a people mover of some kind it’s only 1km max) and improvements at Willesden Junction for the passenger flow. Maybe platforms on the slow lines, with passive to add fast lines later.
The non-HS2 connections it will enable are pretty significant with all GWR trains stopping at OOC

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This is the scope creep I was worried about!!
Start with the minimum needed for transfers - a people mover of some kind it’s only 1km max) and improvements at Willesden Junction for the passenger flow. Maybe platforms on the slow lines, with passive to add fast lines later.
The non-HS2 connections it will enable are pretty significant with all GWR trains stopping at OOC

Indeed. Milton Keynes to Richmond in a flash, Bristol Temple Meads to Neasden in a flash using Old Oak / Willesden and West Hampstead.

The ability to keep passengers out of London with this mega hub is vast.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Something like this perhaps:
View attachment 73887

Realistically. The options are either dedicated walkways with travelators and such (relatively cheap) or a rapid transit extending to other places.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Realistically if we had some form of 'rapid link' between Old Oak (Chiltern, HS2, Heathrow, GWR) and Willesden Junction (LO, Southern, perhaps LNWR type local stuff, Bakerloo) then we are talking about a significant out-of-London hub. I would argue very much in favour of it. No daft re-routing of the West London Line to loop around onto the Richmond - Stratford; and no need to build Crossrail round to get to Milton Keynes or Watford. With frequencies already projected of every 6 minutes (see the relevant Route Utilisation Strategy documents) between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush, there's definitely options.

The best way to achieve that would be to make Old Oak Common a two tier station. The Wycombe Line begins climbing at Wells House Road and veers north to reach OOC High Level and then proceeds to drop down into South West Sidings to connect with both the North London Line (and Willesden Junction) and the South West Line (and the West London Line)

This would achieve your objective, give far more point to the projected Chiltern service to OOC and make that big hub even more useful to even more people.

 

[Meerkat]

Realistically. The options are either dedicated walkways with travelators and such (relatively cheap) or a rapid transit extending to other places.

I was pondering the Luton cable wotsit they are building. It’s a short point to point transit deal.
Obviously a maglev monorail would look the best!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The best way to achieve that would be to make Old Oak Common a two tier station. The Wycombe Line begins climbing at Wells House Road and veers north to reach OOC High Level and then proceeds to drop down into South West Sidings to connect with both the North London Line (and Willesden Junction) and the South West Line (and the West London Line)

This would achieve your objective, give far more point to the projected Chiltern service to OOC and make that big hub even more useful to even more people.

Not sure about Chiltern <> West London Line until you then have a good look at a few other bits and pieces.

You have to weigh up the number of trains operating on each line. Then, any predicted growth and push that all together into a neat bundle.

For example:
- Willesden Junction <> Stratford every 5 minutes
- Willesden Junction <> Richmond every 10-15 minutes
- Clapham Junction <> Willesden / Old Oak approx. every 5 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Kew Bridge every 15 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Cricklewood / West Hampstead every 15 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Watford (via WCML) every 30 minutes

So even if you manage Richmond <> Stratford every 10 minutes and Clapham Junction <> Stratford every 10 minutes, that leaves a 10-minutely path from Clapham. Half-hourly on that would be Watford Junction / Milton Keynes; so this would mean terminating the other 4tph (10-20-10-20) in the 'Low Level' platforms underneath Willesden Junction. New platforms, therefore. You could alternatively divert some to Wembley Central via the Sudbury diveunder and build a platform near the Loco Holding Siding / next to Platform 6.

Kew Bridge is picked instead of Hounslow so that peak capacity is provided on the Hounslow Loop for Waterloo traffic; and that would be to Brent Cross as West Hampstead would be easily accessible from Willesden / Old Oak interchange on the existing NLL. It would be around every 15 minutes but probably slightly biased one way or the other to accommodate the 10-minutely Richmond.

That leaves the Chiltern option. Realistically the best thing would be to convert Greenford <> West Ealing into some sort of Tram option, down Manor Road into West Ealing then along Uxbridge Road to Ealing Broadway. Some trams from Greenford, some from Southall. At the east end, past Ealing Common with some to Shepherds Bush and some to Acton Main Line / Old Oak.

 

[si404]

Like the south WCML commuter services onto Crossrail, nobody wants it.

The reason Thameslink works is because it directly serves the heart of London commuterland, the City.

Surely that would be the case for Crossrail to Tring/MK too, with the added benefit of the West End and Docklands? Hard to think that nobody wants it. The issue was that while it was considered useful, it wasn't considered useful enough to justify the price tag - not that it was opposed (beyond the standard "no toilets and metro-style seating" stock complaints from places like Bletchley). They even did analysis and showed that it took existing users closer to their places of work than Euston.

Though the WLL becoming a second Thameslink - that would be silly. It's not quite as crayony as Thameslink 2 (WAML-tunnel-Croydon-Uckfield-Coast), but OOC-Shepherds Bush won't be anywhere near as important as Docklands or Stratford and so is perhaps a silly idea, even if the business case wouldn't be as terrible due to the much lower cost.

The only 'second Thameslink' that would work would be extending the Victoria BML fasts through the West End and then taking over some service north of London. Oh, I guess Northern City Line extended to somehow take over routes south of London would also work.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was pondering the Luton cable wotsit they are building. It’s a short point to point transit deal.

And it’s the best part of a quarter of a billion quid!

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure about Chiltern <> West London Line until you then have a good look at a few other bits and pieces.

You have to weigh up the number of trains operating on each line. Then, any predicted growth and push that all together into a neat bundle.

For example:
- Willesden Junction <> Stratford every 5 minutes
- Willesden Junction <> Richmond every 10-15 minutes
- Clapham Junction <> Willesden / Old Oak approx. every 5 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Kew Bridge every 15 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Cricklewood / West Hampstead every 15 minutes
- Willesden / Old Oak <> Watford (via WCML) every 30 minutes

So even if you manage Richmond <> Stratford every 10 minutes and Clapham Junction <> Stratford every 10 minutes, that leaves a 10-minutely path from Clapham. Half-hourly on that would be Watford Junction / Milton Keynes; so this would mean terminating the other 4tph (10-20-10-20) in the 'Low Level' platforms underneath Willesden Junction. New platforms, therefore. You could alternatively divert some to Wembley Central via the Sudbury diveunder and build a platform near the Loco Holding Siding / next to Platform 6.

Kew Bridge is picked instead of Hounslow so that peak capacity is provided on the Hounslow Loop for Waterloo traffic; and that would be to Brent Cross as West Hampstead would be easily accessible from Willesden / Old Oak interchange on the existing NLL. It would be around every 15 minutes but probably slightly biased one way or the other to accommodate the 10-minutely Richmond.

That leaves the Chiltern option. Realistically the best thing would be to convert Greenford <> West Ealing into some sort of Tram option, down Manor Road into West Ealing then along Uxbridge Road to Ealing Broadway. Some trams from Greenford, some from Southall. At the east end, past Ealing Common with some to Shepherds Bush and some to Acton Main Line / Old Oak.

Not sure where you’re finding that capacity on the NLL, it’s full now.