Should We Leave the EU?

[zuriblue]

The polls indicate that remain have got it in the bag, so if you do favour remain and you don't get around to voting on Thursday it's not going to be the end of the world

Are you trying reverse psychology there? You shouldn't waste your vote, especially as the Brexiteers probably will try to 'vote early, vote often' (after the 2015 election a few UKIP folks ended up being busted for electoral fraud)

 

[St Rollox]

Will the separatists except defeat gracefully on Friday morning?

 

[Minilad]

Will the separatists except defeat gracefully on Friday morning?

No. They will be too busy trying on their tin foil hats

 

[SS4]

Will the separatists except defeat gracefully on Friday morning?

Should remain win will Farage try to resign (again)? Or will UKIP disband as the people don't want their raison d'etre?

 

[Gutfright]

Are you trying reverse psychology there?

I'm not trying any psychology at all.

There are seemingly some egomaniacs here who think that the words they type on this forum will decide the referendum, but I am not one of them.

Should remain win will Farage try to resign (again)? Or will UKIP disband as the people don't want their raison d'etre?

If we Brexit, UKIP will have fulfilled their raison d'etre and there will be no reason for them to continue to exist.

If you want UKIP to disband, vote leave.

 

[miami]

I'm a Corbyn-supporting member of the Labour party, and I really, really, really wish that certain parts of the left would stop using accusations of racism as a replacement for a proper evidence-based argument.

I really, really, really wish people would stop creating fake quotes, claiming I say things that I didn't.

 

[PhilipRhayader]

I'm not trying any psychology at all.

<snip>

If you want UKIP to disband, vote leave.

ROFL - not sure if it's a good try or sheer desperation.

 

[anme]

I really, really, really wish people would stop creating fake quotes, claiming I say things that I didn't.

An unjustified sense of grievance is vitally important to the "leave" campaign. That and good old "blonde ambition".

 

[Gutfright]

I really, really, really wish people would stop creating fake quotes, claiming I say things that I didn't.

It's not a fake quote. It's a quote from the New Statesman article you posted

I have now amended my original post to reflect the fact that the quote does not come directly from you.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you want UKIP to disband, vote leave.

of all the reasons I've heard to vote leave, that one has to be one of the most - umm - shall I say, innovative

Sadly, I would estimate the chance of UKIP disbanding is about zero. On the contrary, a leave vote is likely to make them feel empowered, and embolden them to pursue their right-wing agenda even more.

 

[Johnuk123]

I get really tired of asking for people to justify the statements they make in favour of leaving the EU, and them failing to reply. But I'm going to do it again. Please provide some evidence of the EU bearing a grudge.

Last July the EU completed a brutal coup d’état against the newly elected Greek government, it imposed on it a massive unsustainable bailout loan that would simply prolong Greece’s six-year-long depression.

 

[anme]

Last July the EU completed a brutal coup d’état against the newly elected Greek government, it imposed on it a massive unsustainable bailout loan that would simply prolong Greece’s six-year-long depression.

Well, that's a certain interpretation. However it's not a very good one as Greece has not been in recession (defined as two consecutive quarters of economic decline) for some time. Let's not let the facts get in the way of the leave campaign though.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well, that's a certain interpretation. However it's not a very good one as Greece has not been in recession (defined as two consecutive quarters of economic decline) for some time. Let's not let the facts get in the way of the leave campaign though.

Don't worry about asking for John's opinions - all you need to do is read the Daily Express

 

[DynamicSpirit]

​

Will the separatists except defeat gracefully on Friday morning?

I would expect - unless there is an unexpected really strong (like: 65-35)victory for one side or the other, that this referendum will not resolve anything. Many people on both sides passionately believe that the 'other' choice will be disastrous for the UK, and those people are not going to stop believing that the day after the referendum. It's only natural that, while yes, some people will take the view that it's best to accept the result as given, others on the losing side will feel that it's their moral obligation to campaign to prevent the oncoming - as they will see it - disaster.

Besides, the campaigns on both sides have been so uninformative, and the misleading statements sufficiently numerous that, whoever wins, many on the losing side will feel that they only lost because of lies told by the other side (or in the case of leave, the perceived unfairness of the Government campaigning for remain), and that they are therefore justified in continuing to campaign.

There's also an issue that if the result is actually something like 48-52, then, you could put up a good moral (although not a good constitutional) case for arguing that what the people have decided is closer to 'I don't know' than to a definite result.
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And - to my mind, the really annoying thing is, we've gone through all this massive, rather uninformative exercise whose main impact seems to have been to sow more division (as well as some hatred) within the UK - mostly, so far as I can make out, because David Cameron and certain other senior Tory politicians thought it was the best way to avoid a split in the Conservative Party

 

[Gutfright]

Well, that's a certain interpretation. However it's not a very good one as Greece has not been in recession (defined as two consecutive quarters of economic decline) for some time. Let's not let the facts get in the way of the leave campaign though.

As the sole guardian of truth and honesty, surely you have to admit that Greece's economy is not exactly in rude health?

 

[TheKnightWho]

As the sole guardian of truth and honesty, surely you have to admit that Greece's economy is not exactly in rude health?

I don't see how the Eurozone is remotely relevant to Britain.

 

[miami]

It's not a fake quote. It's a quote from the New Statesman article you posted

I have now amended my original post to reflect the fact that the quote does not come directly from you.

So it was fake, you claimed I said it, now you're saying I didn't.

 

[Gutfright]

I don't see how the Eurozone is remotely relevant to Britain.

There are a couple of issues here.

The first is that the remain side don't have the moral high ground when it comes to using misleading statistics when they think it helps their cause.

The second is whether or not the EU will pursue a vindictive policy against Britain after the referendum, whatever the result.

There is precedent for the EU acting in a vindictive manner (just ask Greece), and there will certainly be voices within the EU who will want to punish the UK for having the temerity to consider leaving. There will be those who want to make an example of us, to discourage others from following a similar path. I must admit it's not a major concern for me personally, and I'm reasonably hopeful that calmer heads will prevail.

So it was fake, you claimed I said it, now you're saying I didn't.

It was a genuine mistake. I quoted the NS article you posted, but forgot to amend the name in the quote box.

 

[AM9]

There are a couple of issues here.

... The second is whether or not the EU will pursue a vindictive policy against Britain after the referendum, whatever the result.

There is precedent for the EU acting in a vindictive manner (just ask Greece), and there will certainly be voices within the EU who will want to punish the UK for having the temerity to consider leaving. There will be those who want to make an example of us, to discourage others from following a similar path. I must admit it's not a major concern for me personally, and I'm reasonably hopeful that calmer heads will prevail.

Wow, that's the best plug for staying in that I've heard from either side. So maybe the global experts predicting the UK having a downturn really do have some inside knowledge.

 

[Harbornite]

There are a couple of issues here.

The first is that the remain side don't have the moral high ground when it comes to using misleading statistics when they think it helps their cause.

The second is whether or not the EU will pursue a vindictive policy against Britain after the referendum, whatever the result.

There is precedent for the EU acting in a vindictive manner (just ask Greece), and there will certainly be voices within the EU who will want to punish the UK for having the temerity to consider leaving. There will be those who want to make an example of us, to discourage others from following a similar path. I must admit it's not a major concern for me personally, and I'm reasonably hopeful that calmer heads will prevail.

Well done for not addressing the relevance of the Eurozone. Have you got your tin hat on?

 

[Gutfright]

Well done for not addressing the relevance of the Eurozone. Have you got your tin hat on?

Context is important.

TheKnightWho seemed to be wondering how the topic had suddenly turned to Greece's economic woes, and my previous post was an attempt to explain how that issue arose.

It seems to me that you're more interested in throwing around pathetic jibes about tin hats than making any useful contributions to the debate.

Wow, that's the best plug for staying in that I've heard from either side. So maybe the global experts predicting the UK having a downturn really do have some inside knowledge.

You may be right. It could be that the people of Britain will be cowed into voting remain by the bullying threat of EU retribution.

I hope not, though.

 

[Howardh]

The first is that the remain side don't have the moral high ground when it comes to using misleading statistics when they think it helps their cause.

Been to an open meeting with my (Leave) Tory MP tonight. He admits that the "number on the bus" was "misleading" and he accepts we don't send anything like that much. And I won't say what he thinks of Nigel's Advert.

He put a reasonable economic case for leaving; but he still goes on about Turkey joining - he couldn't answer "they can't join whilst they occupy Cyprus, Greece won't let them" or what would happen should Spain cut off Gibraltar (close border and possibly blockade) and he still didn't have much of an answer to immigration, admitting that in the years before we leave there will be a spike of more coming in ahead of the ban. So in order to have control of immigration, you have to have more first.

If Leave win, I'm slightly happier about the economic chances, but the immigration policy is flawed - and will mean more coming in ahead of the expected amount before we leave and when they are in, Geneva Convention means they have to stay.

How many? He hasn't a clue..no-one has.

 

[Harbornite]

Context is important.

TheKnightWho seemed to be wondering how the topic had suddenly turned to Greece's economic woes, and my previous post was an attempt to explain how that issue arose.

It seems to me that you're more interested in throwing around pathetic jibes about tin hats than making any useful contributions to the debate.

Not really, your points infer that there will be a conspiracy regarding the EU's attitude to Britain. I doubt that the EU will want to punish us for having a referendum, especially when one considers that we could leave at any time without a referendum if a parliamentary majority was in favour of article 50. Not many people have addressed this. Also it is rich of you, as a brexiter, to accuse the remain camp of using misleading statistics.

 

[Gutfright]

Not really, your points infer that there will be a conspiracy regarding the EU's attitude to Britain. I doubt that the EU will want to punish us for having a referendum, especially when one considers that we could leave at any time without a referendum if a parliamentary majority was in favour of article 50. Not many people have addressed this. Also it is rich of you, as a brexiter, to accuse the remain camp of using misleading statistics.

If only you'd read to the end of my post, where I said "I must admit [vindictive EU retribution is] not a major concern for me personally, and I'm reasonably hopeful that calmer heads will prevail."

Also it is rich of you, as a brexiter, to accuse the remain camp of using misleading statistics.

Let us be absolutely clear about this: are you saying that nobody on the remain side has used misleading statistics?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

 

[Howardh]

Let us be absolutely clear about this: are you saying that nobody on the remain side has used misleading statistics?

WW3 and armageddon was a bit daft (although a conflict in the Med over Gib v Spain wouldn't be much fun).

My MP admitted there was stuff Leave left out which he touched on tonight - eg making very clear tourists wouldn't need visas for European travel. So I've chipped in to help Leave tonight

 

[TheKnightWho]

TheKnightWho[/B] seemed to be wondering how the topic had suddenly turned to Greece's economic woes, and my previous post was an attempt to explain how that issue arose.

I know why it arose, but I was asking why it was relevant. I still don't think it is.
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WW3 and armageddon was a bit daft (although a conflict in the Med over Gib v Spain wouldn't be much fun).

My MP admitted there was stuff Leave left out which he touched on tonight - eg making very clear tourists wouldn't need visas for European travel. So I've chipped in to help Leave tonight

Remember that the WW3 thing was Boris spin, and was not actually said by Cameron at all.

 

[Gutfright]

I know why it arose, but I was asking why it was relevant. I still don't think it is.

I sort of agree. The Eurozone isn't 100% relevant per se, but the relationship between Greece and the rest of the EU is.

 

[Harbornite]

Let us be absolutely clear about this: are you saying that nobody on the remain side has used misleading statistics?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.

I'll answer however I want. Both sides have been pretty poor at times but the leave campaign has been more misleading than remain. What would you say has been the most misleading stat used by remain?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is precedent for the EU acting in a vindictive manner (just ask Greece)

That seems somewhat questionable. There's a pretty good argument for saying that Greece did get itself into a bad mess in the first place - by allowing allowing a culture of not paying taxes to develop, while trying to spend money on consuming more than it was producing as a country. The EU did subsequently lend Greece a huge amount of money to help the country recover, attached to an austerity program. Personally, I don't believe that the level of austerity required was the right answer, but I don't see any reason to doubt that those in the ECB who devised it did on the whole genuinely believe that it was the only way to get Greece's economy working properly again (just as, presumably George Osborne believes the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, in the UK). There's no need to invoke a motive of vindictiveness to explain the EU's actions on Greece.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The markets are reacting to uncertainty, like I said. So obviously if there were less uncertainty about the referendum result, the falls wouldn't have been as sharp.

Some economists suggest Brexit would be bad for the UK economy, others suggest that Brexit would benefit the UK economy.

But can you find a single economist who doesn't expect the FTSE to rally back after it's recent slump, whatever the result on the 23rd?

So let's not add to the chorus of hysterical scaremongering about the FTSE, shall we?

You might be interested to read that the pound saw its biggest one day rise for almost 8 years and the FTSE jumped by 3% today as the markets responded to opinion poll's that suggest the UK will vote to remain in the EU.

This is on the back of heavy falls in recent weeks as the poll's suggested that there would be a vote to leave the EU. This has nothing to do with "hysterical scaremongering" and everything to do with investor confidence plummeting if the UK were to vote for Brexit.

Personally I will lose a lot of money on Friday if voters decide to go for Brexit and I won't be the only one. Yes in time the markets will recover following a Brexit but no one knows how long that will take, or the effects that a vote for Brexit will have on future investment. Expect to see a lot of job losses in the banking sector if the vote goes the way of Brexit.