Should We Leave the EU?

[miami]

The top paragraph referred to UK internal flights.

Yet you persist with posting about ROI.

In my neck of the woods, domestic flights are like hens' teeth, but Flybe make it quite clear what identification is required before they will allow you to board one such and they all require a photographic ID other than the one exception of a pension book.

Only a few of those IDs give indication of citizenship or permission to be in the UK.

This will be for security r/e someone blowing the plane up, and not an immigration requirement I presume?

Incorrect. It's for revenue prevention. The x-ray and metal detector is for security.

ID is not required, but as the website states [Photo ID] may be requested at certain points in your journey.

You do not have the 'right' to not be indentified by the authorities just because you're on a domestic flight.

No, we live in a free country. The authorities have the right to verify your identity for the purposes of terrorism, not for immigration purposes.

 

[Howardh]

No, we live in a free country. The authorities have the right to verify your identity for the purposes of terrorism, not for immigration purposes.

Question - even then, don't you have the right to remain silent (even r/e terrorist questions) - even if that eventually gets held against you?
**No idea, I'm just asking!

 

[Gutfright]

No, we live in a free country. The authorities have the right to verify your identity for the purposes of terrorism, not for immigration purposes.

This reminds me of something that happened a few years back.

A few mates and I were going on holiday. We paid another friend (British, but of Pakistani origin) who was not going on holiday to drive us down to the airport. When we got there all the passengers got out and started unloading our luggage from the boot. Two policemen came up to the car. They ignored all the passengers (all of us were white) and asked the driver to step out of the car. They then asked him a few questions about what he was doing, then they asked what nationality he was and if he had any ID "to prove you're not illegal". The rest of us were allowed to head into the airport without question.

Were the police breaking the law by acting as they did?

I'm not trying to make a point or anything. I'm just genuinely interested in the answer.

 

[Howardh]

This reminds me of something that happened a few years back.

A few mates and I were going on holiday. We paid another friend (British, but of Pakistani origin) who was not going on holiday to drive us down to the airport. When we got there all the passengers got out and started unloading our luggage from the boot. Two policemen came up to the car. They ignored all the passengers (all of us were white) and asked the driver to step out of the car. They then asked him a few questions about what he was doing, then they asked what nationality he was and if he had any ID "to prove you're not illegal". The rest of us were allowed to head into the airport without question.

Were the police breaking the law by acting as they did?

I'm not trying to make a point or anything. I'm just genuinely interested in the answer.

Did they make a record of it (they have to I understand), and has the guy any comeback ie. apology?

 

[miami]

Were the police breaking the law by acting as they did?

Tricky. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not sure there is a law they are breaking by asking "papers please", any more than I can ask to see your passport.

However if the driver refused, like Harry Willcock, I don't believe there's anything they can legally do - they'd have no grounds to detain him.

 

[Butts]

Is anyone else suspicous as to the fact that not a single SNP MP or MSP has declared in favour of Brexit ?

It seems inconceiveable that even one or two would not be in favour of leaving the EU.

Polls show that about a third of SNP supporters favour leaving so it's not as if there is no electoral justification for holding such a view.

Stepford wives and husbands spring to mind

 

[Gutfright]

I'd like to change the tone slightly and ask for predictions about how the vote will go.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I see remain winning with about 55% of the vote. I expect a decent turnout too, although probably not Scottish indyref levels.

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar seem locked in as overwhelmingly remain. The polling in Wales is actually interesting, with Brexit making some gains recently.

The only straw I have to grasp on as a Brexit supporter is that the pollsters got the general election so very wrong. They got the Scottish independence referendum spot on though (sad face).

Please someone, tell me I'm wrong!

 

[EM2]

I think it's too finely balanced to call. But my gut feeling is that Leave will win. Polling recently (by 'polling' I mean General and European elections and so on, rather than opinion polling) has shown that the electorate is generally right of centre, and that is where the core of the Leave vote will come from.

 

[Antman]

I think it's too finely balanced to call. But my gut feeling is that Leave will win. Polling recently (by 'polling' I mean General and European elections and so on, rather than opinion polling) has shown that the electorate is generally right of centre, and that is where the core of the Leave vote will come from.

Let's hope so, certainly round this way there are leave posters in many windows, I haven't seen one remain poster but obviously it's not over until the fat lady sings

 

[EM2]

Let's hope so, certainly round this way there are leave posters in many windows, I haven't seen one remain poster but obviously it's not over until the fat lady sings

Let's hope not, because it will be an utter disaster.

 

[AM9]

If the vote goes in favour of remaining, will this be held up as the reason?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3648446/Don-t-let-man-s-sacrifice-vain-Swastika-covered-vote-Leave-activist-shocking-support-Jo-Cox-s-alleged-killer-calls-MP-s-death-unfortunate-says-shouldn-t-stop-Britons-voting-out.html

'Don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain': Outrage as Swastika-covered vote Leave activist calls Jo Cox's death 'unfortunate'... and says it shouldn't stop us quitting EU' ...

Apologies for not quoting full article but doing this on tablet.

 

[Antman]

Let's hope not, because it will be an utter disaster.

I'd say the exact opposite but I think we'll just have to beg to differ.

 

[EM2]

Deleted - problem uploading image.

 

[47802]

I'd like to change the tone slightly and ask for predictions about how the vote will go.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I see remain winning with about 55% of the vote. I expect a decent turnout too, although probably not Scottish indyref levels.

Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar seem locked in as overwhelmingly remain. The polling in Wales is actually interesting, with Brexit making some gains recently.

The only straw I have to grasp on as a Brexit supporter is that the pollsters got the general election so very wrong. They got the Scottish independence referendum spot on though (sad face).

Please someone, tell me I'm wrong!

I don't know I think its very unpredictable at present, I myself have gone from remain to undecided on the grounds that, yes leaving will affect our economy, but immigration is a concern and there is a lot wrong with the EU in the way it operates, so do we fight to change it from within or do we say no thanks and give it a kicking?

The other problem with leaving is the Tory party being taken over by the right wing and running the country for the next 4 years.

 

[EM2]

I'd say the exact opposite but I think we'll just have to beg to differ.

Well, it's not just me saying it...

 

[Senex]

I think it's too finely balanced to call.

I too think it's too close to call, and what worries me about that is endless challenges to the outcome, whichever way it goes.

If we have, for the sake of argument, an 85% turnout and 60% of those vote one way or the other, then I think everyone has to accept that the will of the people has been expressed. But suppose it were only a 60% turnout and the split was, as in the Austrian presidential election, a few tenths of a percentage point either side of 50. Can we really see Brexit accepting a Stay decision or Remain accepting an Out decision on that basis? How could a government from a totally split party react to any such outcome of a referendum that is, after all, only advisory legally?

 

[Groningen]

If you pull out; how does it affect the Eurostarservice to and from London. There are British customofficers in Paris, Brussel and Lille? Do they stay or is inspection moved back to London. That could result in a huge pileup of people to inspect.

 

[WestCoast]

If you pull out; how does it affect the Eurostarservice to and from London. There are British customofficers in Paris, Brussel and Lille? Do they stay or is inspection moved back to London. That could result in a huge pileup of people to inspect.

Like everything concerning leaving it would be down to individual negotiations, which could take years. There is a precedent outwith the EU; the US has immigration and customs officers in Ireland and the UAE to pre-clear passengers flying there.

 

[Howardh]

I too think it's too close to call, and what worries me about that is endless challenges to the outcome, whichever way it goes.

If we have, for the sake of argument, an 85% turnout and 60% of those vote one way or the other, then I think everyone has to accept that the will of the people has been expressed. But suppose it were only a 60% turnout and the split was, as in the Austrian presidential election, a few tenths of a percentage point either side of 50. Can we really see Brexit accepting a Stay decision or Remain accepting an Out decision on that basis? How could a government from a totally split party react to any such outcome of a referendum that is, after all, only advisory legally?

Although I'm remain - a small part of me wants Leave to win as I'd love to sit back and watch the chaos unfold. Here is an answer to overturning (right word??) the referendum...so here goes (and it would be very brave of the Tories and Labour to do it!)

1. Out wins by a narrow margin.
2. Parliament is overwhelmigly in favour of staying in.
3. Negotiations don't start immediately.
4. Cameron and Corbyn agree to insure a vote of "no confidence" is held and the government calls a General Election in October.
5. General Elections trump referendums. As in a referendum result isn't binding
6. All pro-EU sides do the number crunching to make sure seats aren't split to allow UKIP in and Labour/Tory stand aside in key constituencies if necessary.
7. The GE is won by Labour/SNP/Liberal (and even Tory) coaliton
8. The referendum result is scrapped - outcry by 35% of the population (35% voted remain - 30% didn't vote/Couldn't care less)
9. There's a second General Election in May where we can all get back to normal, complaining about the trains/weather/middle order etc etc.

OK, it all sounds a bit fantasy lala and all that - but strictly speaking it's the logistical way to keep us in Europe and be the right side of the law!

 

[Muttley]

Possible Howard.
As I've said all along, we won't be allowed to leave. Whether that's an In vote, MPs overturning the referendum, the EU coming back with what CMD should have negotiated, or something more sinister, only time will tell.

 

[ExRes]

Although I'm remain - a small part of me wants Leave to win as I'd love to sit back and watch the chaos unfold. Here is an answer to overturning (right word??) the referendum...so here goes (and it would be very brave of the Tories and Labour to do it!)

1. Out wins by a narrow margin.
2. Parliament is overwhelmigly in favour of staying in.
3. Negotiations don't start immediately.
4. Cameron and Corbyn agree to insure a vote of "no confidence" is held and the government calls a General Election in October.
5. General Elections trump referendums. As in a referendum result isn't binding
6. All pro-EU sides do the number crunching to make sure seats aren't split to allow UKIP in and Labour/Tory stand aside in key constituencies if necessary.
7. The GE is won by Labour/SNP/Liberal (and even Tory) coaliton
8. The referendum result is scrapped - outcry by 35% of the population (35% voted remain - 30% didn't vote/Couldn't care less)
9. There's a second General Election in May where we can all get back to normal, complaining about the trains/weather/middle order etc etc.

OK, it all sounds a bit fantasy lala and all that - but strictly speaking it's the logistical way to keep us in Europe and be the right side of the law!

Wow, so that's how democracy could work, I never realised how lucky I was to live in Russia

On a more serious note though, anyone who doesn't vote/couldn't care less has no right to a say in how our country is run, In or Out

 

[TheKnightWho]

On a more serious note though, anyone who doesn't vote/couldn't care less has no right to a say in how our country is run, In or Out

Why is that? That's a surefire way to make people who feel disenfranchised feel even less connected to the political system.

If people don't vote it doesn't mean their views shouldn't be taken into account. In fact, we should be doing everything we can to find out why.

 

[Johnuk123]

Why is that? That's a surefire way to make people who feel disenfranchised feel even less connected to the political system.

If people don't vote it doesn't mean their views shouldn't be taken into account. In fact, we should be doing everything we can to find out why.

Are you old enough to vote ?

 

[ExRes]

Why is that? That's a surefire way to make people who feel disenfranchised feel even less connected to the political system.

If people don't vote it doesn't mean their views shouldn't be taken into account. In fact, we should be doing everything we can to find out why.

This is the biggest decision this country has ever had to make, those that have been given the right to have their say, and voluntarily choose not to, are not disenfranchised, they are electing to sit on the fence and not use their right to vote. They have had months to tell us why, it is not for us to chase around after them.

I very much hope that every single person entitled to vote will do so, and that those who are on the 'losing' side will accept without question the choice of the majority, it may surprise you but that is exactly what I will do

 

[TheKnightWho]

Are you old enough to vote ?

Good to see you really know how to cut to the heart of the issues.

And yes, I've been able to vote for quite a number of years - I'm sure that must annoy you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is the biggest decision this country has ever had to make, those that have been given the right to have their say, and voluntarily choose not to, are not disenfranchised, they are electing to sit on the fence and not use their right to vote. They have had months to tell us why, it is not for us to chase around after them.

I very much hope that every single person entitled to vote will do so, and that those who are on the 'losing' side will accept without question the choice of the majority, it may surprise you but that is exactly what I will do

People don't make decisions in a vacuum: if people feel disenfranchised it's because the political system has failed them in some way, not because they don't deserve to have a say.

I agree that it would be ideal if everyone voted, but we can't just take the system we have for granted, and tell people it's their own fault for not turning out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Possible Howard.
As I've said all along, we won't be allowed to leave. Whether that's an In vote, MPs overturning the referendum, the EU coming back with what CMD should have negotiated, or something more sinister, only time will tell.

In my list of acronyms, CMD equates to Central Materials Depot.

 

[Gutfright]

People don't make decisions in a vacuum: if people feel disenfranchised it's because the political system has failed them in some way, not because they don't deserve to have a say.

I agree that it would be ideal if everyone voted, but we can't just take the system we have for granted, and tell people it's their own fault for not turning out.

On a practical level, how do we ensure non-voters "have a say"?

Do we employ Mystic Meg to tell us what the non-voters want?

In my list of acronyms, CMD equates to Central Materials Depot.

Campaign for Muclear Disarmament?

 

[TheKnightWho]

On a practical level, how do we ensure non-voters "have a say"?

Do we employ Mystic Meg to tell us what the non-voters want?

You know, all of the ways we've historically encouraged more people to vote?

https://www.boundless.com/political...9/attempts-to-improve-voter-turnout-384-5669/

Sarcasm only works if you don't know b*gger all about a topic.

 

[southern442]

On a practical level, how do we ensure non-voters "have a say"?

Do we employ Mystic Meg to tell us what the non-voters want?

Make it mandatory to vote but have a 'None of the above' option.

 

[cjp]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that this referendum is majorly flawed. Everything I have seen so far is being based on the EU as it is now. So although it maybe better to stay in now, it may not be in the future. It doesn't help matters if Britain doesn't know what it actually really wants. What is being argued is either about levels of immigration or that of its usefulness as a trade association. The EU stopped being just a trade association when it ceased to be the EEC. If the EUs hopes and aims are anything to go by, a) are they succeeding, and b) is it what we want.

I agree.

It has taken decades to get where we are now and is that a good place to be (if you are not a politician in power or big business)?

The EU has set some good standards but there is nothing to stop us following these standards even if we are not in the EU.

I still need to take foreign currency if I go abroad but few counties now require visas so why would the EU?

I do not see what we gain by being in although I do hear big business likes the tax deals and breaks they get with little or no paperwork on shipping goods or money around.