Should We Leave the EU?

[EM2]

Who owns your workplace, and who gets the profits when your company has a good year?

The Government.
EDIT - actually, that's not quite correct. The workplace (i.e. the building itself) is owned by a private company. My company manages it and runs it on their behalf. But the profits from my company do go to the Government.

 

[Gutfright]

But what do we want, an EU setup where money generally gets spent on good things that help the poorer parts of Britain or on research or the current conservative government which would.probably just spend the money we would save by leaving on tax breaks for the rich.

I know which one I'd rather have.

Just because we would have all this supposed extra money doesn't mean any of use would actually see it.

So we need to leave the EU then get rid of the current shower and elect a left-wing government.

The right wing is sweeping across Europe at the moment. Don't look to the EU to save us.

The Government.
EDIT - actually, that's not quite correct. The workplace (i.e. the building itself) is owned by a private company. My company manages it and runs it on their behalf. But the profits from my company do go to the Government.

In that case the crucial question is...

You're outside when the sun comes out. You take off your jumper. Do you drape it over your shoulders or tie it around your waist?

 

[EM2]

In that case the crucial question is...

You're outside when the sun comes out. You take off your jumper. Do you drape it over your shoulders or tie it around your waist?

I put it in my bag

 

[Senex]

To be fair the Brexit camp like the remain camp is made up of many disparate groups with widely different political views. These range from quite isolationist views of virtually zero immigration and protectionist trade policies to very radical free market positions where most employment protections would go along with all trade barriers. Some in this camp would want to see far more open immigration but more based on skills rather than entitlements. For these reasons the Brexit camp can't set out a coherent picture of the future they want because they would end with never ending infighting.

If there are so many different interest-groups, how can we possibly know what sort of group would end up leading the exit negotiations on the British side and what sort of prospectgive future we might be voting for if we were even to consider voting Brexit?

 

[anme]

I'm well aware of the concept of probability, thank you.

How likely do you think it is that Brexit would lead to mass deportation of millions of EU citizens from the UK? 33% likely? 78%? 100%?

Much higher than your unicorn fantasy.

As I said, mass deportations are not really what people are worried about. That's relatively unlikely, although it certainly can't be ruled out. More likely is that people (to be clear, taxpayers) will be made to leave if they lose their job; or they will lose entitlement to healthcare, forcing them to leave if they get ill; or they will not be allowed by buy property or get married; or they will not get reasonable pension rights; or their children will not be permitted an education; or they will be subject to draconian red tape of many kinds. In the end, most evil would be done with rules and regulations, not outright force.

This is really what scares people - both EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens elsewhere in the EU - and quite rightly so. This IS what "leavers" are talking about, and it will ruin people's lives.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're not saying that people who don't go to university are stupid and therefore Brexit is stupid.

I was merely pointing out a very striking statistic. It's very interesting to see how you interpreted it.

 

[Antman]

So your argument is that there are absolutely no places it's feasible to build in Britain? What utter rubbish.

You seem to have this idea it's literally impossible to expand public services too, which makes absolutely no sense. If immigrants pay in more than they take out, which has been proven, we have the extra money to pay for it.

As usual the rubbish comes from your direction, just how many people do you think should be allowed into the UK before the full signs go up?
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That's a load of rubbish. The number of unskilled people in the world is not infinity so there can't be an unlimited number of unskilled people arriving. And what are you classing as unskilled - are Polish brick layers unskilled in your opinion?
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So where are you going to put the millions of Britons who may have to return home if we leave the EU and restrict immigration, who will end up taking the place of those immigrants that you hate so much? There's millions of retired Britons living abroad who will be a much bigger drain on the NHS than a equivalent number of working age Eastern Europeans.

Why do we need Polish bricklayers and who said anything about millions of Britains returning home?

Oh and I don't hate anybody, you just show your own ignorance with such pathetic comments.

 

[EM2]

As usual the rubbish comes from your direction, just how many people do you think should be allowed into the UK before the full signs go up?

A lot more than there are now.

 

[Antman]

A lot more than there are now.

But how many? I would say the south east was full now.

 

[EM2]

But how many? I would say the south east was full now.

I disagree. There are plenty of empty buildings that can be used for housing, and improving infrastructure would create jobs.
Personally, and I realise that this is a deeply unpopular opinion, I feel that anyone should be allowed to live anywhere in the world that they want to, whether that's in London, Auckland, Tristan da Cunha or Outer Mongolia.

 

[Antman]

I disagree. There are plenty of empty buildings that can be used for housing, and improving infrastructure would create jobs.
Personally, and I realise that this is a deeply unpopular opinion, I feel that anyone should be allowed to live anywhere in the world that they want to, whether that's in London, Auckland, Tristan da Cunha or Outer Mongolia.

I don't about a deeply unpopular opinion, it's just sheer fantasy and is never going to happen.

 

[yorksrob]

and it will ruin people's lives.

Much like the single currency has ruined peoples lives.

 

[TheKnightWho]

As usual the rubbish comes from your direction, just how many people do you think should be allowed into the UK before the full signs go up?

It's not rubbish just because you don't have an answer to it. By what measure are we 'full'?

Refusing to expand housing or services doesn't make us full - it just means you refuse to accept population growth. You've just drawn an arbitrary line in the sand that assumes all immigrants must drain from the economy (false), that all land that can be built on has been built on (false), and that public services are literally incapable of growing larger (false).
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I don't about a deeply unpopular opinion, it's just sheer fantasy and is never going to happen.

It's only fantasy because people like you prevent it from happening precisely because you keep repeating that it's fantasy. Utter rubbish.

 

[anme]

Much like the single currency has ruined peoples lives.

So no care or concern at all for destroying the lives of people simply because they weren't born in the UK, or simply because they were but they chose to leave?

Let's be clear. Some Brexiters won't be able to stomach mass deportations from the UK, or of British people outside the UK. However they will very happily support achieving the same thing through regulation and paperwork. It's worth thinking about that next time you see Gove, Johnson and Farage, or meet a Brexiter.

 

[Antman]

It's not rubbish just because you don't have an answer to it. By what measure are we 'full'?

Refusing to expand housing or services doesn't make us full - it just means you refuse to accept population growth. You've just drawn an arbitrary line in the sand that assumes all immigrants must drain from the economy (false), that all land that can be built on has been built on (false), and that public services are literally incapable of growing larger (false).
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It's only fantasy because people like you prevent it from happening precisely because you keep repeating that it's fantasy. Utter rubbish.

Clearly your just make this up as you go along, I have never said ALL immigrants are a drain on the economy:roll:

Anyway this is just like a ride on the Circle Line, a lot to huff and puff just to end up back where you started:cry:

 

[backontrack]

We can't afford to leave the EU. We are already controlled by the US on the global stage - leaving the EU would just make that worse!

Did you know that the UK can't use Trident - our nuclear deterrent - without the USA's permission? Or that Washington can stop us from using it by denying us access to crucial GPS and weather information? I bet that we pay a darn sight more money to the US then to the EU every year.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Clearly your just make this up as you go along, I have never said ALL immigrants are a drain on the economy:roll:

Anyway this is just like a ride on the Circle Line, a lot to huff and puff just to end up back where you started:cry:

What am I making up as I go along? I'm trying to get some coherence out of your position, but you're completely unwilling to explain yourself, and whenever you're backed into a corner you call it "going round in circles".

We're not going in any circles: you clearly just don't like having your opinion challenged by someone who can see through the rubbish you take for granted, because you've clearly never questioned a lot of the assumptions you make over immigrants.

If immigrants aren't a drain on the economy (which they very much aren't as a whole), why can't we use that additional money to create new public services? They more than pay their way including the extra resources they use on current services!

 

[EM2]

It's only fantasy because people like you prevent it from happening precisely because you keep repeating that it's fantasy. Utter rubbish.

To be fair, the way I'd like it to work probably *is* fantasy

If you can travel to a country under your own steam, you should be allowed to live there. But, I also believe that there should be no such thing as land ownership, for example. How can someone arbitrarily declare that an area of land belongs to a certain person, and it is worth a particular amount?
The land has always been here, the people have not.

However, this is a discussion for another thread.

 

[Steveman]

When the embittered prime minister has to tell his wife to write a 2 page newspaper glowing appreciation of the EU you know he's well and truly rattled.
On the BBC this morning he looked very unhappy.
They have just had the chairman of the EU budget commission on BBC who admitted that the budget renegotiation has been deliberately delayed until the referendum is over which is no surprise.The amount of stuff that has been delayed is huge.
The Financial Times which is very pro EU have today said a huge amount of EU legislation has all been held over until the vote is over.

It's just not going to plan is it, the Tories should be 20 points in front at this stage but all these leaders they've written speeches for have done nothing but turn people the other way.

 

[Chew Chew]

When the embittered prime minister has to tell his wife to write a 2 page newspaper glowing appreciation of the EU you know he's well and truly rattled.
On the BBC this morning he looked very unhappy.
They have just had the chairman of the EU budget commission on BBC who admitted that the budget renegotiation has been deliberately delayed until the referendum is over which is no surprise.
The Financial Times which is very pro EU have today said a huge amount of EU legislation has all been held over until the vote is over.

It's just not going to plan is it, the Tories should be 20 points in front at this stage but all these leaders they've written speeches for have done nothing but turn people the other way.

Of course he is rattled, if Leave wins then he is a dead duck as PM.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the embittered prime minister has to tell his wife to write a 2 page newspaper glowing appreciation of the EU you know he's well and truly rattled.
On the BBC this morning he looked very unhappy.

It's just not going to plan is it, the Tories should be 20 points in front at this stage but all these leaders they've written speeches for have done nothing but turn people the other way.

Why, when people of all parties are leading lights of both the stay and leave camps in this referendum in which the principal of "one man...one vote" will apply in the referendum, do you make a totally meaningless comment about "the Tories should be 20 points in front at this stage".

You could make the assumption that Boris Johnson is "the Tory" as he seems a leading light in the leave campaign. Have you allowed your undoubted vitriol affect your understanding that this is not a General Election, but a referendum.

 

[Steveman]

Why, when people of all parties are leading lights of both the stay and leave camps in this referendum in which the principal of "one man...one vote" will apply in the referendum, do you make a totally meaningless comment about "the Tories should be 20 points in front at this stage".

You could make the assumption that Boris Johnson is "the Tory" as he seems a leading light in the leave campaign. Have you allowed your undoubted vitriol affect your understanding that this is not a General Election, but a referendum.

As Cameron is leading the OUT campaign and virtually everyone who is put forward to talk about it is a Tory as Corbyn can't be bothered to turn up I would say what I said to be very accurate.

 

[Howardh]

Of course he is rattled, if Leave wins then he is a dead duck as PM.

He should resign with the statement "Right Boris, you've got us into this mess, go and deal with it, it's on your head".

Wonder if, secretly, Boris (and Gove) want a remain win as in the next few years everything that could (and probably would) go wrong with Brexit is on their shoulders. And id Scotland goes it's own way, Boris is the man that broke up the UK.

Farage is OK, he can resign, done his job, and clear off into the wilderness.

 

[GarethJohn]

Wouldn't a Brexit be more favourable to ISIS & Russia? Putin is already doing what he can to destabilise the EU & it's Turkish relations by exasperating the refugee crisis in targeting Syrian Civilians and forcing them to flee. It could be a round about way of getting revenge on Europe for supporting the Ukraine & sanctioning Russia. He has turned the Gas off to Non- EU East European states before, he knows he cannot do this to EU states as together they have the power to hurt Russia more than he can us. ( I'm sure he is behind whats happening in Marseille )
ISIS would love less co-operation between EU states as it would make life far easier for them the less information and joint Security forces means less chance of getting caught.
Brexit's whole campaign is based on Immigration & security. I don't believe that restricted immigration between EU states and the UK would address the security problem as the potential terrorists are either already here or from outside the the EU so will not make any difference. France currently is obliged to put as much resources as it can in trying to prevent Asylum Seekers, Refugees and Illegal Immigrants crossing the Channel due to us being a fellow member of the EU. After Brexit those wanting to enter the UK will be leaving EU borders, they will no longer be France's problem. I guess Policing Calais doesn't come cheap would a the UK replenish or fund French Forces? Would it be able to with outside the EU ?
Immigration has and will always happen towards the areas of the World that offer Work and security. There is no greater want for Mankind than being able to pay your way and feed your family. If you cannot do it where you are you move. Our ancestors & us their descendants are here or in America due to that reason. The only sure fire way you will eliminate migration into the UK is by wrecking it's economy. So Brexit is one way of achieving that.

 

[Steveman]

If you can travel to a country under your own steam, you should be allowed to live there. But, I also believe that there should be no such thing as land ownership, for example. How can someone arbitrarily declare that an area of land belongs to a certain person, and it is worth a particular amount?
The land has always been here, the people have not.

I wrote things like that when I was at school and even then it was barmy.

 

[northwichcat]

Why do we need Polish bricklayers and who said anything about millions of Britains returning home?

Oh and I don't hate anybody, you just show your own ignorance with such pathetic comments.

I was just wondering what your definition of 'unskilled' is, whether it includes 'manual skilled' and 'semi-skilled' as well given you're objecting to what you said is an unlimited number of unskilled workers coming over here.

Many Britains have chosen to live in the EU as a result of free movement. If we leave the EU the Spanish (or any other EU nation) can kick out all the British people living there. How many British nationals live outside the UK within the EU and how does that compare to the number of non-British EU nationals living in the UK. Given you were blaming the housing shortage on unskilled EU people coming over here I presume you know how those figures roughly compare without having to research them. If not then it's a bit rich calling me ignorant.

 

[GarethJohn]

The most crucial that in the the UK is Agriculture to feed itself.
How many points will you need to enter as a Farm Labourer if we have a Nigel Farage based immigration system?
And I guess what Eddie Izzard was getting at was how many would a German need to enter as a Secretary to a UKIP MEP? It's hardly an essential occupation is it? Would it be considered a Marriage of convenience if it's the MEP' wife?

 

[GarethJohn]

I was just wondering what your definition of 'unskilled' is, whether it includes 'manual skilled' and 'semi-skilled' as well given you're objecting to what you said is an unlimited number of unskilled workers coming over here.

Many Britains have chosen to live in the EU as a result of free movement. If we leave the EU the Spanish (or any other EU nation) can kick out all the British people living there. How many British nationals live outside the UK within the EU and how does that compare to the number of non-British EU nationals living in the UK. Given you were blaming the housing shortage on unskilled EU people coming over here I presume you know how those figures roughly compare without having to research them. If not then it's a bit rich calling me ignorant.

Its Young, fit, enthusiastic, unskilled labour that the UK needs most. How many of the UK unemployed are actually fit enough to work 16 hours in a Potato field?

 

[TheKnightWho]

As Cameron is leading the OUT campaign and virtually everyone who is put forward to talk about it is a Tory as Corbyn can't be bothered to turn up I would say what I said to be very accurate.

All you're doing is writing desperate, gloating statements about what you wish were true. It's very telling, to be honest.

 

[PhilipRhayader]

As Cameron is leading the OUT campaign and virtually everyone who is put forward to talk about it is a Tory as Corbyn can't be bothered to turn up I would say what I said to be very accurate.

And who is put forward by the leave campaign - Johnson, Smith, Gove, Farage. Remind me which party they are primarily from.

While I'm on, any idea how much of this alledged £350 million a week do you expect those four to allocate to education/health/welfare, given how much three of them have had a hand in cut, cut, cut?

 

[backontrack]

And who is put forward by the leave campaign - Johnson, Smith, Gove, Farage. Remind me which party they are primarily from.

Don't forget Grayling and Whippingdale.