Should We Leave the EU?

[miami]

Just shows the contempt the Remainers have for the voting public, somebody should explain to the Baroness what exactly a referendum is.

Ahh, another example of our democratic westminster government.

She's the Minister of State for Pensions, part of the executive, yet seems to have failed to be elected, instead being appointed by Cameron. Just like Jonathan Hill.

Was she grilled by the house of commons before appointment? Jonathan Hill was (by the European Parliament). Could the house of commons reject her appointment? They could with Hill.

 

[EM2]

Yep, both questions required a Yes/No response.
So it looks very much like to me that EM2 lied about the people voting on the clauses.

I didn't say that the Irish electorate voted clause by clause. That was your interpretation of my post.

It was a referendum on acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty. The referendum in June 2008 was defeated. The Irish Government conducted research as to why the public voted against, went to the EU and said 'if we can get agreement on these points, we are confident that'll be passed in a second referendum'. The EU agreed to those points, there was a second referendum in October 2009, which was passed.

I should add that the Treaty Of Nice was also rejected on first referendum (June 2001), and passed on second referendum (October 2002). Irish membership of the EEC (as was) was passed on first referendum in May 1972.
As far as I am aware, Ireland has never held a further referendum on membership of the EU.

 

[miami]

It was a referendum on acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty. The referendum in June 2008 was defeated. The Irish Government conducted research as to why the public voted against, went to the EU and said 'if we can get agreement on these points, we are confident that'll be passed in a second referendum'. The EU agreed to those points, there was a second referendum in October 2009, which was pased.

That sounds a perfectly reasonable way to run a country. What's the problem?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought it was from the EU benevolent society who dish out their own money to good casuses.
Are you saying it's not actually from the EU then but is in fact simply being returned to where it originally came from.

It's not a charity but more like a joint bank account with other EU countries. We pay in what we can afford, other countries do the same. If we have some major problem (like the BSE cattle problem I mentioned) we can finish up taking more money out than we paid in, if things are going well in our country then we can pay in more than we take out.

The Brexiters seem to be unhappy about it because we had a very successful economy between 1998 and 2007. Then in 2008 when we had an economic downturn, it wasn't as major as what happened in many southern EU countries, meaning overall we've not benefited as much as other countries. I imagine Osborne implementing harsh austerity policies when the UK's economy wasn't as broken as other EU countries directly resulted in us getting less from the EU than we would otherwise have got.

However, we can get indirect financial benefits from being in the EU. For instance, people living in countries which issue national ID cards can use them to get around the EU without buying a passport. So someone with one might make a weekend trip to London but if we leave the EU the additional cost of buying a passport might convince them to visit Berlin for the weekend instead.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Really ?

Is being a woman a bad thing now? Christ, you're a lovely one aren't you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ahh, another example of our democratic westminster government.

She's the Minister of State for Pensions, part of the executive, yet seems to have failed to be elected, instead being appointed by Cameron. Just like Jonathan Hill.

Was she grilled by the house of commons before appointment? Jonathan Hill was (by the European Parliament). Could the house of commons reject her appointment? They could with Hill.

Euphorically resigning myself to an ever-reducing number of days where the media put their own methodology into top gear and wondering if the media constant message of MP's attitudes on the matter of the referendum as if this was a party political election, the basic matter of the referendum being that the electorate as a whole who will have an opportunity to have "one man...one vote" does seem to be of secondary importance to the media political journalists who want to keep their egos as large as ever...

 

[EM2]

EU referendum: British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

The British public have it wrong on immigrants and wrong on the EU.

According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

In a survey of 1,000 people, weighted to represent the nation’s demographic profile in terms of age, gender, ethnicity and other factors, respondents claimed that, on average, 15 per cent of the UK population are EU immigrants. That would be 10.5m people. The correct figure is 3.5m. Those who intend to vote Leave in the referendum put the figure at 20 per cent. ‘Remainers’ put the figure at 10 per cent.

One in seven people (15 per cent) believe ‘at least one Euro-myth’, including bans on barmaids showing too much cleavage, and the forcible renaming of Bombay Mix to Mumbai mix. Neither are real. 24 per cent of people believe overly bendy bananas are banned from import to the UK under EU law. (‘Malformed bananas’ are banned from export under an EU regulation.)

84 per cent of people think the UK is in the top three contributors to the EU budget. 23 per cent think it is the single biggest. In fact the UK is in fourth place, behind Germany, which pays 21 per cent, France (16 per cent) and Italy (12 per cent). The UK pays 11 per cent.

But the UK receives less money back than Germany, Italy, Spain and France, a fact not lost on 58 per cent of respondents.

David Cameron’s rebate did much to publicise the issue of child benefit payments to EU migrants, a fact that few people in the UK were even aware of. 14 per cent of people now think that 30 per cent of the UK’s Child Benefit budget is sent to children living overseas. 23 per cent of people think that 13 per cent of it does. The correct figure is 0.3 per cent. It means that almost 49 per cent of the population overestimate the figure by more than 40 times.

Only 5 per cent of people were able to name an MEP representing their area.

The EU spends 6 per cent of its budget on administration. The average guess was 27 per cent. Were this the case, the spend would be £30bn a year, instead of around £6bn.

On the impact of the referendum the general public were similarly misguided. 63 per cent think that Brexit will reduce immigration, an assurance that the Leave camp have consistently failed to give. Only 25 per cent of people think it will reduce living standards.

Professor Anand Menon, Director of the UK in a Changing Europe, who co-authored the study said:

“There are obviously still high levels of ignorance about the EU, which is troubling so close to the referendum. However, it is not so surprising, given the lack of accurate information provided to the public, as well as the mistruths, exaggerations, and scaremongering that have taken place during this campaign. It’s now more imperative than ever that the public can be provided with as much factual information about the EU as possible before they cast their vote”

 

[miami]

Euphorically resigning myself to an ever-reducing number of days where the media put their own methodology into top gear and wondering if the media constant message of MP's attitudes on the matter of the referendum as if this was a party political election, the basic matter of the referendum being that the electorate as a whole who will have an opportunity to have "one man...one vote" does seem to be of secondary importance to the media political journalists who want to keep their egos as large as ever...

Ahh democracy. If only we had an informed population.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

In a survey of 1,000 people, weighted to represent the nation’s demographic profile in terms of age, gender, ethnicity and other factors, respondents claimed that, on average, 15 per cent of the UK population are EU immigrants. That would be 10.5m people. The correct figure is 3.5m. Those who intend to vote Leave in the referendum put the figure at 20 per cent. ‘Remainers’ put the figure at 10 per cent.
....
On the impact of the referendum the general public were similarly misguided. 63 per cent think that Brexit will reduce immigration, an assurance that the Leave camp have consistently failed to give. Only 25 per cent of people think it will reduce living standards.

This isn't of concern to "Sandy5" though

The 'in or 'out' cannot say what will happen. I do not think either know all about the EU. What we all know though is how the other countries in the EU are failing, economically, with unemployment and mass immigration. These you cannot make up. There are riots, murders, rapes and lots of crime every day. The EU is a dictatorship. I do nt want o live under a dictatorship. I want my voice to be heard. I want to be able to vote our leaders 'in and 'out'.

 

[Aldaniti]

In equally shocking news..... Remainers are convinced that no matter how much they try and fill a pint-pot, it will never, ever, ever become full.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html

The campaign to take Britain out of the EU has opened up a remarkable 10-point lead over the Remain camp, according to an exclusive poll for The IndependentThe survey of 2,000 people by ORB found that 55 per cent believe the UK should leave the EU (up four points since our last poll in April), while 45 per cent want it to remain (down four points). These figures are weighted to take account of people’s likelihood to vote. It is by far the biggest lead the Leave camp has enjoyed since ORB began polling the EU issue for The Independent a year ago, when it was Remain who enjoyed a 10-point lead. Now the tables have turned.

This is almost certainly a rogue poll as no others are showing such a big lead, saying that it would really need a lead double that size to guarantee a Leave victory as the undecided will be too scared to vote for a change.
As it's not a phone poll it should be taken with a pinch of salt, although apparently there is talk of a crisis in Downing Street which is a bit premature to say the least.

 

[Gutfright]

It's not a charity but more like a joint bank account with other EU countries. We pay in what we can afford, other countries do the same. If we have some major problem (like the BSE cattle problem I mentioned) we can finish up taking more money out than we paid in, if things are going well in our country then we can pay in more than we take out.

Even with BSE and the IRA bombing happening, we still paid in billions more than we took out.

 

[anme]

I therefore put it that the common travel area will still be with us, regardless of the referendum outcome.

How would you deal with EU/EEA citizens who can legally live and work in Ireland but which Brexiters believe can't wait to live and work in the UK? Brexiters are literally *terrified* of these people - that's what this referendum is all about. Are you relying on the British economy being destroyed by leaving the single market to mean than no-one wants to come to the UK any more? If not, you need a border.

To be clear, I strongly support remaining in the EU.

 

[EM2]

Even with BSE and the IRA bombing happening, we still paid in billions more than we took out.

And? I've paid thousands into National Insurance and taken very little out.
If everyone takes out more than they put in, that's just a massive Ponzi scheme.

 

[furnessvale]

I imagine Osborne implementing harsh austerity policies when the UK's economy wasn't as broken as other EU countries directly resulted in us getting less from the EU than we would otherwise have got.

So, the UK makes the tough decisions that others are unwilling to make which makes us more able to bail the others out!

Great club to be in!

 

[yorksrob]

No, I don't think the UK would want to impose onerous travel restrictions, but something would need to be done to better control immigration.

Border enforcement is currently quite a significant part of immigration control.
(e.g., more people are refused entry at the border than are forcibly removed from the country.)

How would you deal with EU/EEA citizens who can legally live and work in Ireland but which Brexiters believe can't wait to live and work in the UK? Brexiters are literally *terrified* of these people - that's what this referendum is all about. Are you relying on the British economy being destroyed by leaving the single market to mean than no-one wants to come to the UK any more? If not, you need a border.

To be clear, I strongly support remaining in the EU.

I'm sure that those found working in the UK illegally after a Brexit will be dealt with (or not, as the case may be) no differently from how those found working illegally in the UK are dealt with today.

I'm also equally confident that we will not place onerous restrictions on EU citizens wishing to travel to visit the UK, just as I'm also confident that the Irish Republic will not be joining Schengen any time soon.

This is why the common travel area will not be going anywhere and why Major and Blair are talking out of the side of their hats.

With regard to restricting immigration at the border, this would be far more likely to be exercised towards those without a right to visit in the first place, so will be far more of an issue with borders with countries in the Schengen area than with the Republic which like us, maintains border controls.

 

[anme]

I'm sure that those found working in the UK illegally after a Brexit will be dealt with (or not, as the case may be) no differently from how those found working illegally in the UK are dealt with today.

I'm also equally confident that we will not place onerous restrictions on EU citizens wishing to travel visit the UK, just as I'm also confident that the Irish Republic will not be joining Schengen any time soon.

This is why the common travel area will not be going anywhere and why Major and Blair are talking out of the side of their hats.

What's the point of leaving the EU if you can't building a massive wall to keep all the foreigners out? Isn't that the whole point of this referendum? You will also need to keep out goods and services, not just people, if the UK leaves the single market. How do you plan to do that?

(I believe the UK should remain in the EU)

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my often repeated question about what the outers want after leaving the EU. Do you want to be Norway? Turkey? Canada? What do you want to see? You *must* have thought hard about this.

 

[miami]

So Jamea Dyson has come out in favour of brexit. I don't understand his reasons to be honest.

He complains about different languages and plugs. That won't change on brexit.
He says he can't do maths, claiming that the trade imbalance is 9b a month, and if the trend continues will soon be over 100b a year. 9*12 is 108
He complains that it's hard to employ staff from outside the eu - 5 months, but that's a government policy that won't change as the whole point of brexit is to reduce immigration and bring the international points system into the eu as well. It just means those who want talanted staff from Europe will suffer the same as those that want talent from Singapore.

Just another billionaire wanting to leave Europe for his own gain?

 

[northwichcat]

So, the UK makes the tough decisions that others are unwilling to make which makes us more able to bail the others out!

Great club to be in!

As the economists told us before the last general election the Conservatives will cut at a faster rate than is necessary but it seems too many people believed Cameron's PR bull**** where he took credit for a few policies which the Lib Dems forced him in to as evidence for his claim that the Conservatives are the party for working people.

 

[yorksrob]

What's the point of leaving the EU if you can't building a massive wall to keep all the foreigners out? Isn't that the whole point of this referendum?

(I believe the UK should remain in the EU)

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my often repeated question about what the outers want after leaving the EU. Do you want to be Norway? Turkey? Canada? What do you want to see? You *must* have thought hard about this.

You sound as though you've been reading too many newspapers. There are many reasons to be sceptical of the EU, not least because it is hell bent on turning the region into a free market free-for-all at the same time as pursuing overly centralising tenancies with policies such as the single currency, which has managed to bankrupt half of the continent.

And they never learn either. The answer to every problem is always "more EU" and never "more autonomy.

We shouldn't need to have to change international treaties to tinker with the VAT rate, decide how we structure the housing market or whether we should have a vertically integrated railway or not.

 

[radamfi]

You sound as though you've been reading too many newspapers. There are many reasons to be sceptical of the EU, not least because it is hell bent on turning the region into a free market free-for-all at the same time as pursuing overly centralising tenancies with policies such as the single currency, which has managed to bankrupt half of the continent.

And they never learn either. The answer to every problem is always "more EU" and never "more autonomy.

We shouldn't need to have to change international treaties to tinker with the VAT rate, decide how we structure the housing market or whether we should have a vertically integrated railway or not.

Do you want to be Norway? Turkey? Canada?

 

[northwichcat]

He complains about different languages and plugs.

So if he doesn't want to sell to Europe where there's different languages and plugs will he instead sell to North America where Americanised versions of both French and Spanish are spoken as well as some languages which practically no-one in Europe understands?

 

[yorksrob]

Do you want to be Norway? Turkey? Canada?

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will do for me.

 

[northwichcat]

We shouldn't need to have to change international treaties to tinker with the VAT rate

Westminster could impose a 15% cut in VAT without needing permission from the EU. The increase in VAT to 20% was because the Conservatives wanted to increase it and quoted tax rates in other EU countries to make it sound not as bad.

Canada?

Having been to Canada recently I wouldn't like to see Canadian prices in UK shops despite the on paper lower tax rates. The prices in shops are high enough before they add on tax at the till - which gets something like a national 5% standard tax added on then an additional local tax of 8-13% on top of that, for most products.

 

[yorksrob]

Westminster could impose a 15% cut in VAT without needing permission from the EU. The increase in VAT to 20% was because the Conservatives wanted to increase it and quoted tax rates in other EU countries to make it sound not as bad.
.

I'm aware that the EU graciously gives us limited discretion on what the overall VAT rate should be. I was referring to the court decision that outlawed our 5% cheaper VAT rate for energy efficiency products.

Regardless of the merits of a cheaper VAT rate for such products, there is absolutely no justification or value in the EU having any sort of influence on such a decision.

 

[Antman]

What's the point of leaving the EU if you can't building a massive wall to keep all the foreigners out? Isn't that the whole point of this referendum? You will also need to keep out goods and services, not just people, if the UK leaves the single market. How do you plan to do that?

(I believe the UK should remain in the EU)

BTW, I'm still waiting for an answer to my often repeated question about what the outers want after leaving the EU. Do you want to be Norway? Turkey? Canada? What do you want to see? You *must* have thought hard about this.

It's more about restricting the number of foreigners coming in than building walls to keep them all out:roll:

 

[radamfi]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will do for me.

Please, answer the question properly. Do you want to be like Norway, where it is basically the same as being in the EU, or like Turkey where you are part of the customs union, or something else?

 

[anme]

We shouldn't need to have to change international treaties to tinker with the VAT rate, decide how we structure the housing market or whether we should have a vertically integrated railway or not.

You have been reading too many right wing newspapers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will do for me.

Please please please answer the question! What do you (or any other "leaver") want for the UK after leaving the EU? Do you want to remain in the EEA (Norway)? Do you want to make complex bilateral arrangements amounting to much the same thing (Switzerland)? Do you want to sail off into the Atlantic and start from scratch? What do you want?! You MUST have a plan! Please tell us what it is!

 

[furnessvale]

As the economists told us before the last general election the Conservatives will cut at a faster rate than is necessary but it seems too many people believed Cameron's PR bull**** where he took credit for a few policies which the Lib Dems forced him in to as evidence for his claim that the Conservatives are the party for working people.

Whatever decisions he made, it appears to have put us in a better position to bail out our EU friends, who still want to hang on to early retirement and better pensions which their economies cannot afford without EU bailouts.

 

[northwichcat]

It's more about restricting the number of foreigners coming in than building walls to keep them all out:roll:

If politicians had been more strict about foreigners coming over here in the past then Nigel Farage would never have been born as his father would have remained in France and not met his British mother.

And as for those troublesome Greeks - how dare one of them come over here and start up one of the biggest airlines in Europe paying millions of pounds of tax to Westminster which could have gone to the Greek government. :roll:

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regardless of the merits of a cheaper VAT rate for such products, there is absolutely no justification or value in the EU having any sort of influence on such a decision.

Actually, there is: The need to keep VAT rates broadly similar in different countries to avoid a race to the bottom in tax rates: If there was no EU regulation of VAT rates, then businesses in countries that had lower VAT rates would have a big competitive advantage over businesses making similar products in countries with higher VAT rates.

For Conservatives: That would be bad because it would distort the market, leading to less efficient production and therefore ultimately hurting people's standard of living.

For Labour supporters: That would be bad because it would put pressure on all Governments to engage in a race-to-the-bottom on VAT rates, making it harder to fund all the things you'd like the Government to do (such as maintain the NHS or the railways ).