Should We Leave the EU?

[northwichcat]

Which is quite odd as both the University of Salford and BBC state that £83m of public funding was received along with £500m of private funding

There is no apportioning of the £83m but it is a long long way from £450k and £21.5m

The figures given were what both sides committed as a result of the bombing and the £450k figure was quoted by one of John Major's ministers.

The full Facebook post does say that after Tony Blair became PM that additional funding was given to the area (after a lot of local pressure.) However, the BBC article you refer to indicates seems to indicate that a large proportion of the £83m was further development for the area after the bomb damage had been rectified such as building the Urbis and creating facilities for the hosting of the Commonwealth Games.

Note a large bus station in Manchester was originally replaced by a load of bus shelters - only when Shudehill Interchange was completed (10 years after the bombing) was there a proper bus station again.

Interesting Googling '£83m of public funding for Manchester' returns a Salford City council document where they refer to the current government cutting funding by £83m! The Conservatives obviously think Manchester was given too much and want it all back!

 

[Muttley]

Your conspiracy theories, which invariably contain absolutely no content, are meaningless.

Yet again you can't win the argument so you go down the insult line. Typical of all your posts in this thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know the British are cynical, but that's just defeatism.

There's very little defeatism on the Leavers side, just realism.

It's the Remainers that have the defeatist attitude of we can't cope alone without somebody telling us what to do.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can actually empathise with you there, I felt the same about IDS

He he! Referenda do cause some uncomfortable alliances!

 

[NSEFAN]

There's very little defeatism on the Leavers side, just realism.

What realism? What do you envisage the outcome of an exit vote to be?

 

[Muttley]

What realism? What do you envisage the outcome of an exit vote to be?

Jesus H.
Right, just for you, who hasn't brother reading the previous posts...

An exit vote will have the EU rushing forward a raft of sweeteners/bribes/call them what you will, followed by another referendum within 2 months, so that we vote the right way.

That's what they did with Ireland, that's what'll happen here.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yet again you can't win the argument so you go down the insult line. Typical of all your posts in this thread.

You haven't provided an argument. You don't get to just come out with trite soundbites that have no content, and then call it insults when someone is pointing out that that's what you're doing.

But yes, you delude yourself I have no arguments for Bremain.

 

[Gutfright]

Post circulating on social media indicates how much money the UK and the EU provided to rebuild Manchester after the IRA bombing. Westminster provided £450,000 while Brussels provided £21.5m.

https://www.facebook.com/dave.haslam/posts/10153576195617411

These sort of facebook posts are always -ALWAYS- super-reliable.

But the UK contributed over €8 billion to the EU in 1996, so I should ruddy well hope that they gave us a little of our own money back to help rebuild after a terrorist attack.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Jesus H.

Who is this person with a single letter surname?

 

[Gutfright]

Who is this person with a single letter surname?

He was in a pop group called Steps, I think.

 

[EM2]

An exit vote will have the EU rushing forward a raft of sweeteners/bribes/call them what you will, followed by another referendum within 2 months, so that we vote the right way.

That's what they did with Ireland, that's what'll happen here.

Ireland renegotiated, based on what the electorate had said they did not support in the treaty.
The European Council agreed that:
the necessary legal guarantees would be given that nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon made any change of any kind to the Union's competences on taxation for any member state;
the necessary legal guarantees would be given that the Treaty of Lisbon did not prejudice the security and defence policy of any member state, including Ireland's traditional policy of neutrality;
the necessary legal guarantees would be given that neither the Treaty of Lisbon (including the Justice and Home Affairs provisions), nor the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, affected the provisions of the Irish Constitution in relation to the right to life, education and the family in any way;
in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, a Decision would be taken to retain Ireland's Commissioner, provided that the Treaty of Lisbon was ratified;
the high importance attached to issues including workers' rights would be confirmed.

So basically, what Ireland wanted, Ireland got.
The second referendum was actually sixteen months later.

But apart from that, you were spot on.

 

[Muttley]

Funny, I thought they had an in out referendum, I didn't realise they were asked clause by clause.
My mistake.

 

[miami]

These sort of facebook posts are always -ALWAYS- super-reliable.

But the UK contributed over €8 billion to the EU in 1996, so I should ruddy well hope that they gave us a little of our own money back to help rebuild after a terrorist attack.

It's not westminster's money. Westminster couldn't give a stuff about anywhere beyond stockbroker belt, hence London gets crossrail and Manchester gets pacers.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Funny, I thought they had an in out referendum, I didn't realise they were asked clause by clause.
My mistake.

So it's impossible for people to express themselves over issues now?

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of Ireland, I notice that Mr Major and Mr Blair have raised the prospect of the end of the free movement area between the UK and the Irish Republic should the country vote to leave the EU.

This seems like an untruth to me given that this arrangement existed before the EU itself. The only way I would envisage a solid border appearing between the UK and Rep of Ireland would be if the Irish Republic were to join the Schengen zone (and they have repeatedly made it clear that they have no intention of doing that should it risk the common travel area).

 

[Muttley]

So it's impossible for people to express themselves over issues now?

Express yourself how you want. You still only get asked In/Out.

Whoever wins, the sun will rise on the 24th, the tides will rise and fall, the wind will blow, and we'll still be in the EU. Should the Out side win, If you've got a holiday booked to Espania, you won't suddenly need visas, you won't have to walk down a different customs line; if you're ordering your new EU flag, you won't suddenly have import taxes.

 

[tony_mac]

This seems like an untruth to me given that this arrangement existed before the EU itself.

Exactly - it was at a time when the rest of Europe didn't have an automatic right to live in Ireland. Now that they do, it's a completely different scenario.

I don't see how it would be tenable for two countries to have massively different immigration rules and a completely open border, but there are an enormous amount of details to work out before this might become a reality.

Funny, I thought they had an in out referendum, I didn't realise they were asked clause by clause.
My mistake.

You could always look it up and see what it actually was...

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly - it was at a time when the rest of Europe didn't have an automatic right to live in Ireland. Now that they do, it's a completely different scenario.

I don't see how it would be tenable for two countries to have massively different immigration rules and a completely open border, but there are an enormous amount of details to work out before this might become a reality.


You could always look it up and see what it actually was...

The fact is, the Irish Republic doesn't have an open border with the rest of Europe. You may well have a diffusion of EU nationals in Ireland with a right to travel across the border, but their right to settle in the UK would be determined by the law in the UK at the time.

What you would be much less likely to have would be the sort of build up of non-EU nationals as happens at Calais as that would require an open border with the rest of Europe.

I therefore put it that the common travel area will still be with us, regardless of the referendum outcome.

 

[tony_mac]

The fact is, the Irish Republic doesn't have an open border with the rest of Europe.

Many people wish to restrict immigration to the UK from within Europe.
However, Europeans will still have an automatic right to enter Ireland, and from there they could enter the UK without any further checks.
It may not be legal for them to come and work in the UK, but without any border checks, what can you do about it?

What you would be much less likely to have would be the sort of build up of non-EU nationals as happens at Calais as that would require an open border with the rest of Europe.

Do you mean if there was a closed border between the UK & Ireland?

I therefore put it that the common travel area will still be with us, regardless of the referendum outcome.

I think that entirely depends on what sort of immigration policy the UK was to decide on afterwards. If it were to be as restrictive as some people want, then I can't see how having an open border to the EU could possibly be workable, but there are lots of currently unknown variables.

 

[Senex]

The fact is, the Irish Republic doesn't have an open border with the rest of Europe. You may well have a diffusion of EU nationals in Ireland with a right to travel across the border, but their right to settle in the UK would be determined by the law in the UK at the time.

What you would be much less likely to have would be the sort of build up of non-EU nationals as happens at Calais as that would require an open border with the rest of Europe.

I therefore put it that the common travel area will still be with us, regardless of the referendum outcome.

But what happens if post-Brexit Ireland decides that its future lies in closer integration with the EU rather than in keeping the common travel area with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? And if the figures work out so that Scotland demands a new independence referendum and then votes to leave the UK, where does that leave Ireland and Scotland against what's left?

 

[Steveman]

Labour is sending out a glossy 4 page pro Remain leaflet to every house but has decided to omit any mention of the word immigration whatsoever.
Good to see they are fully in tune with the electorate.
John Mann and Dennis Skinner who have joined Brexit are far more in tune with ordinary labour voters than the Islington "Mafia" who now run labour.

On a separate note the weirdo woman Eddie Izzard on Question Time last night who was introduced as a comedian for some reason claimed if we had a Brexit not only would Scotland, Wales and N.I leave the Union the north of England would too. Even a member of the audience shouted at her to "shut up" with her continual interrupting and talking rubbish.

 

[miami]

Many are voting to leave the right to stop te Muslims from Pakistan and Syria.

 

[northwichcat]

Many are voting to leave the right to stop te Muslims from Pakistan and Syria.

Yet there's around 2 million Syrian Christians who probably feel a lot more threatened by IS than Muslims.

 

[EM2]

Many are voting to leave the right to stop te Muslims from Pakistan and Syria.

Even though we already have that right.

 

[Gutfright]

Many are voting to leave the right to stop te Muslims from Pakistan and Syria.

[citation needed]

 

[90sWereBetter]

On a separate note the weirdo woman Eddie Izzard.

What a lovely, tolerant person you are...

 

[DarloRich]

I have undertaken a project try and seek out the kind of impartial information i want on this important topic and have done a lot of reading over the last few days having filtered out as much of the wibble, froth and dog whisltes that the politicians are spouting as possible.

I am still unsure how I will vote although my concerns are really broken down as follows:

1) Financial contribution to the EU v financial returns from the EU

2) The economy/employment - better in or out?

3) Employees rights - do i trust the likes of Gove/IDS/Boris etc to protect and enhance them (No!)

4) Closer union - do our opt outs provide us with a mechanism to decide our future membership?

5) Human rights - do i trust the likes of Gove/IDS/Boris etc to protect and enhance those rights (No!)

EU Immigration, border control, sovereignty etc don't really worry me. The European migrants are said to be a net contributor to our economy. It strikes me that those immigrants aren't the ones we should worry about!

 

[Steveman]

What a lovely, tolerant person you are...

I knew somebody would stick up for her, the audience reaction was pretty spot on as she was ridiculed and by trying to shock just looked a complete fool.
Do you think anybody undecided would have been impressed by her ranting and going off topic and waving her arms like an idiot and decide to stay in ?
I think if the Remainers have another car crash of a show like that one that will tip the balance even more to Leave. it was obvious the BBC had put Izzard next to Farage to provoke him unfortunately it fell very flat as Izzard was shown up for what she is - a very very unfunny exhibitionist.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think pointing out that you are being offensive is really sticking up for anyone.

 

[Howardh]

I have undertaken a project try and seek out the kind of impartial information i want on this important topic and have done a lot of reading over the last few days having filtered out as much of the wibble, froth and dog whisltes that the politicians are spouting as possible.

I am still unsure how I will vote although my concerns are really broken down as follows:

1) Financial contribution to the EU v financial returns from the EU
Apparently, no-one knows!
2) The economy/employment - better in or out?
We need a good guess
3) Employees rights - do i trust the likes of Gove/IDS/Boris etc to protect and enhance them (No!)
Probably wouldn't dare alter them, but if he EU comes out with even more protection, the UK could miss out
4) Closer union - do our opt outs provide us with a mechanism to decide our future membership?
No change??
5) Human rights - do i trust the likes of Gove/IDS/Boris etc to protect and enhance those rights (No!)
We're in the European Court Of Human Rights, which is outside the EU's remit, so no change but stuff like passengers rights eg. air delays could go out of the window.
EU Immigration, border control, sovereignty etc don't really worry me. The European migrants are said to be a net contributor to our economy. It strikes me that those immigrants aren't the ones we should worry about!
There will be limitless EU immigration in or out, unless leave are brave enough to close the Irish border, which will require a wall of some sort

To me, there are too many if's, could's and maybe's on the Brexit side to give them any hope; but even if I wanted to take the plunge and I thought immigration was the key, OUT will solve nothing whilst that border's open.

 

[EM2]

I knew somebody would stick up for her, the audience reaction was pretty spot on as she was ridiculed and by trying to shock just looked a complete fool.
Do you think anybody undecided would have been impressed by her ranting and going off topic and waving her arms like an idiot and decide to stay in ?

Eddie Izzard is male.