Should We Leave the EU?

[Harbornite]

A precedent has now been set and if Thursday 2 hrs before the registration closes we have another crash the Govt. will be forced to extend again.
They won't be able to say "Oh tough luck you've had 2 months to register it's your fault"
because if they thought that they would never have extended it by such a huge amount of 48 hrs to compensate for less than 2.
What an excellent example to set to younger people, don't bother getting yourself in gear leave it until the very last minute and the Govt. will make sure everything is fine little snowflake.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as they meet the deadline. What about the people who tried to register before the deadline, but couldn't because the website had crashed?

 

[yorksrob]

I think at this stage it might be worth suggesting to people intending to vote, not to leave it until ten minutes before the polls are due to close !

 

[Gutfright]

Sadly it wasn't of the quality, depth or penetrating nature I had hoped.

Considering that the debate was on ITV, it sounds as though you set your expectations way too high.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It seems there's a fairly prominent defection: Tory MP for Totnes, Sarah Wollaston, previously a supporter of Brexit, has changed her mind and decided to vote to remain:

Three successive tweets from her:

• Having listened carefully to both sides of the debate, I believe our NHS & research will be safer if Britain remains in the EU
• If I woke on the 24th June to the news that Britain had voted to leave the EU, I would feel a sense of loss rather than freedom.
• Of course I understand that politicians are not allowed to change their minds but real people do

 

[zuriblue]

It seems there's a fairly prominent defection: Tory MP for Totnes, Sarah Wollaston, previously a supporter of Brexit, has changed her mind and decided to vote to remain:

Three successive tweets from her:

If I remember correctly she had previously refused to distribute a Leave leaflet about the NHS because it was a pack of lies.

As a friend of mine said, I suppose that in her view if Leave were talking rubbish about her specialist subject it was likely they were talking garbage about other things as well. (Cleaned up somewhat to avoid the wrath of the mods)

 

[Aldaniti]

I can understand her disagreeing with campaign methodology, but changing her mind on the substantive issue - and the timing of the decision - suggests either poor decision making skills, or that other forces might be at play. And in other news today..... former 'here today, gone tomorrow' former defence secretary John Nott suspends his membership of the Conservative Party on the grounds that Cameron has 'poisoned the debate' with his Project Fear doom and gloom.

One step forward, one step back...

 

[Greenback]

I don't see anything wrong at all in people changing their minds. I'd prefer that to stubbornly sticking to a point of view that they've realised is wrong, or simply not the best option after all.

Mind you, if Cameron or Farage changed their minds on this, that would just destroy them!

 

[ExRes]

I would certainly agree that Dr Wollaston has every right to change her mind at any stage, the odd thing to me is that as chair of the Health Committee in the House of Commons it has taken her until now to disagree enough to take this step

 

[northwichcat]

Nothing wrong with that, as long as they meet the deadline. What about the people who tried to register before the deadline, but couldn't because the website had crashed?

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned that registration now requires your NI number, which meant a lot of younger people abandoned their first attempt to register because they didn't know it or have it to hand. One Conservative MP was arguing on the new yesterday that it's their own fault if they leave things until the last minute but has any of the registration publicity said to have your NI number to hand?

 

[EM2]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned that registration now requires your NI number...

It doesn't.
From https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote (my emphasis):

Register to vote
Use this service to apply to register to vote or to:

update your name, address or other details on the electoral register
change your voting preferences, eg to vote in person or by post
change whether you’re on the open register
It usually takes about 5 minutes.

You may need the following, if you have them:

your National Insurance number
your passport if you’re a British citizen living abroad
You need to be on the electoral register to vote in elections and referendums.

 

[90sWereBetter]

A precedent has now been set and if Thursday 2 hrs before the registration closes we have another crash the Govt. will be forced to extend again.
They won't be able to say "Oh tough luck you've had 2 months to register it's your fault"
because if they thought that they would never have extended it by such a huge amount of 48 hrs to compensate for less than 2.
What an excellent example to set to younger people, don't bother getting yourself in gear leave it until the very last minute and the Govt. will make sure everything is fine little snowflake.

Good to know you don't like young people...

Getting slightly off the topic of the EU, one of Sarah Wollaston's tweets from last night was "Of course I understand that politicians are not allowed to change their minds but real people do". I've always thought that double standard if MP's change their mind it's a "terrible thing, shows they have no integrity", but it's totally OK for everyone else to have changes of mind is really not on.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm simply trying to make the point that, considering her Health Committee role, she should have known the veracity of the £350m claim far earlier than most

The £350M figure is the amount the Brexit campaign have been claiming is the net amount we pay the EU. It's false because it does not account for the UK's rebate, and does not account for money the EU returns to the UK in the form of investment. It's actually the amount that hypothetically would have been our net contribution if we didn't have a rebate and the EU spent nothing in the UK.

The Brexit argument that this amount would be available to spend on the health service is also not plausible because, even if the figure for our net contributions was correct, it doesn't take account the likely loss of taxation revenue that would result from the economic hit from leaving the EU. That amount is unknowable but most economists seem to agree that it would be substantially greater than our net contribution, so the overall result would be a net loss in money available, not a net gain. Further, it assumes that, if the amount became available, the UK Government would actually choose to spend it on the health service. Judging by the record of the present Government, that seems unlikely. Tax cuts for the wealthy seems to me rather more likely.

But the key point in response to your comments is that none of that information requires any particular knowledge of the health service, so it seems unlikely that being on the Health Committee would make it more likely that an MP would know it. On the other hand, it is all fairly basic stuff, so you'd have thought any reasonably well-informed MP would have been aware of it. If Sarah Wollaston didn't know all that two months ago, then I'd agree with you that she would seem to have been somewhat badly informed for an MP.

Still to my mind, a late understanding of reality is better than no understanding of reality at all

 

[Muttley]

I don't see anything wrong at all in people changing their minds. I'd prefer that to stubbornly sticking to a point of view that they've realised is wrong, or simply not the best option after all.

Mind you, if Cameron or Farage changed their minds on this, that would just destroy them!

Call Me Dave has changed his mind, just look at his rhetoric before his failed renegotiation.
How he gets away with U-turning on just about every subject he makes an announcement beats me. He truly is the heir to Teflon Tony.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't.
From https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote (my emphasis):

Your quote says they may ask you to provide your NI number. Banks say to open an account you may need ID, that doesn't mean if they ask for it and you can't provide it you'll still be allowed to open an account.

 

[Howardh]

At time of writing, no mention of Sarah Wollaston MP on the Daily Mail's website; although it she gets prominent headlines in both the Telegraph and Guardian's websites.

How odd.....

 

[Johnuk123]

I think from the reports registering to vote for the first time is not possible without a NI number.

Yes you can, you are supposed to give a reason why you haven't got one and if applicable provide ID proof.
Not having one will not stop you voting.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Call Me Dave has changed his mind, just look at his rhetoric before his failed renegotiation.
How he gets away with U-turning on just about every subject he makes an announcement beats me. He truly is the heir to Teflon Tony.

You can want to remain in the EU whilst wanting reform :roll:

 

[Greenback]

You can want to remain in the EU whilst wanting reform :roll:

Indeed you can. I know quite a few people who don't much like the EU the way it is now, but who want to change it for the better while remaining a member. Just because someone is in favour of remaining doesn't mean that they they think the EU is perfect.

 

[EM2]

Your quote says they may ask you to provide your NI number. Banks say to open an account you may need ID, that doesn't mean if they ask for it and you can't provide it you'll still be allowed to open an account.

Indeed, but it doesn't say that you require your NI number, which was the point you made. Have you gone through the registration process?

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed, but it doesn't say that you require your NI number, which was the point you made. Have you gone through the registration process?

No I was registered under the old scheme when every household got a letter every year. I was saying what had been reported on the news a week or so ago that a lot of registration attempts were abandoned on the screen that asks for a NI number.

 

[Muttley]

You can want to remain in the EU whilst wanting reform :roll:

You can want lots of things, don't mean you've a cat in shells chance of it happening.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You can want lots of things, don't mean you've a cat in shells chance of it happening.

Your conspiracy theories, which invariably contain absolutely no content, are meaningless.

 

[NSEFAN]

You can want lots of things, don't mean you've a cat in shells chance of it happening.

I know the British are cynical, but that's just defeatism.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I know the British are cynical, but that's just defeatism.

Churchill would be proud.

 

[Howardh]

How's about we have a nice, good old fashioned British compromise?
We put the EU on hold and slide seamlessly into the EEA for ten years, and then make our minds up EU/EEA/OUT then?

Everyone happy, lovely compromise, just like putting the spinner on in bad light. Totally British, Churchill would be proud!

 

[Antman]

Feels very odd to be watching and being on the same side as David Cameron and therefore being forced to mentally cheer him on. Not sure if it's an experience I want to repeat too often

I can actually empathise with you there, I felt the same about IDS

 

[Howardh]

I can actually empathise with you there, I felt the same about IDS

I'm a social democrat (remember them??) but vote Tory to keep Labour out. However, and OUT vote would make me almost certain to vote Labour next time (in a CON/LAB marginal - one of Labour's Must Wins) in the hope that somehow they can reverse the vote, or at least water it down by joining the EEA on almost the same terms as the EU for the same rights. NB all three adults here feel the same way, so it's a net turn of 6 votes!!

Let's face it, the vote is in and out of the EU. That's it, there's nothing about what happens next.

 

[northwichcat]

Post circulating on social media indicates how much money the UK and the EU provided to rebuild Manchester after the IRA bombing. Westminster provided £450,000 while Brussels provided £21.5m.

https://www.facebook.com/dave.haslam/posts/10153576195617411
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a social democrat (remember them??) but vote Tory to keep Labour out.

So you supported a centre-left party but would rather have had right of centre Cameron as PM than left of centre Miliband? That sounds similar to saying I want to do my shopping at Lidl but there isn't a Lidl in my town and I refuse to go to the closest alternative of Aldi so I go to Waitrose instead.

However, an OUT vote would make me almost certain to vote Labour next time

Miliband was the only party leader who said an EU referendum would be a waste of money and wouldn't happen with him as PM. In response to criticism he said the public had a choice and if they wanted to stay in the EU they can vote Labour - that probably lost him votes to UKIP but if you're saying you'll only vote Labour after leaving the EU it doesn't sound like it had the desired effect with pro-EU voters.

 

[Howardh]

Post circulating on social media indicates how much money the UK and the EU provided to rebuild Manchester after the IRA bombing. Westminster provided £450,000 while Brussels provided £21.5m.

https://www.facebook.com/dave.haslam/posts/10153576195617411
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you supported a centre-left party but would rather have had right of centre Cameron as PM than left of centre Milliband? That sounds similar to saying I want to do my shopping at Lidl but there isn't a Lidl in my town and I refuse to go to their rival Aldi so I go to Waitrose instead.

Yes, a million times yes. Didn't want Milliband anywhere near No10. I was more than happy with the Libdem/Tory coalition - maybe the only one in the country!

 

[ExRes]

Post circulating on social media indicates how much money the UK and the EU provided to rebuild Manchester after the IRA bombing. Westminster provided £450,000 while Brussels provided £21.5m.

Which is quite odd as both the University of Salford and BBC state that £83m of public funding was received along with £500m of private funding

There is no apportioning of the £83m but it is a long long way from £450k and £21.5m