Should We Leave the EU?

[tony_mac]

There are currently 987 Polish rapists and murderers in British jails as well as 690 Romanian murderers and rapists

Those figures seem to be for the total number of prisoners - I think somebody has been (deliberately?) misinterpreting scary headlines.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614279/Poland-tops-league-foreign-inmates-UK-jails-ahead-Ireland-Jamaica.html
(I make this a slightly lower percentage than for those that were born in the UK, but they are certainly pretty close)

Ireland are in second place (with an even higher proportion), should we be closing that border as well?

 

[TheKnightWho]

From the EU....



...so it looks like the old lies, damned lies, and statistics, maths to me.
WWIII, if we leave, anyone ?

Got any evidence your amount of 3 was correct?

 

[miami]

Going by your figures 987 Poles+690 Romanians+650 Lithuanians (at a rough guess)+600 Bulgarians (at a rough guess) = 2927 out of a population of 4 million. Or to put it another way, 0.07% of the Eastern European population of the UK.
What percentage of the UK-born population are in prison on charges of murder or rape?
What percentage of the ex-pat UK population in Spain, France, Italy or any other EU country are in prison on charges of murder or rape?

What percentage of UKIP MEPs have been sent to prison?

 

[EM2]

What percentage of UKIP MEPs have been sent to prison?

About 8-10% isn't it? I can think of two (Ashley Mote and Tom Wise).

 

[Howardh]

After reading round several newspapers, messageboards, Beano magazines; I've come to this conclusion.
In hockey, if you want to refer an incident to the video umpire, you have to ask a specific question eg "It hit No9's foot in the circle". If it didn't, but there was an obstruction, sorry, you didn't ask for that.
The UK public are asked to vote in. or out, of the EU.
That's it. Once it's decided, our government are free and at liberty to do anything they like in the best interests of us, business, them, you name it.
So they are entitled to leave but all-but-stay in the EU. They don't have to do anything about migrants, that wasn't the question.
So if we join the EEA and pay into the EU + have free movement of goods/people just like now, it's no good Brexiters complaining, your question was to leave the EU and we did (if we did).
The cahnces are there will be some paper excerise about migration (to keep UKIP happy) but not much will change, and the electorate can't complain as, democratically, the government have done was asked.
Very cleverly worded referendum! Do you want to remain in the EU or join a near-as-dammit EU? Brilliant!!

 

[northwichcat]

Gibralter isn't in the EU. Even if it passed all the requirements, Spain would never* let it in, just as Cyprus would never* let Turkey in.

* never is a long time, but treat it as "in the forseeable future"

Correct it isn't part of the EU but as it's UK overseas territory and the UK is part of the EU it means the people who live in Spain and work in Gibraltar can get through the border crossing with just their Spanish national ID card. Imagine if they had to show a passport and get it stamped every day - they'd need new passports every month!

It also meant when a former mayor of La Linea proposed a 'congestion charge' for people using the road to/from the border the EU were able to say it wouldn't be allowed under EU legislation as it would effectively be a border crossing charge which isn't allowed within the EU.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe if the UK leaves, and Scotland goes independent so that Scotland can remain in the EU, Gibraltar could claim to be a part of Scotland, not a part of England

Wouldn't Spain then want to reject an independent Scotland as a new EU country?

 

[Howardh]

Technically, there's nothing stopping the UK giving Gibraltar its independence (eg Malta) although I don't think there's any appetite for that there or here.
But there will almost certainly be some kind of toll, at or near the border, should the UK leave the EU; which may have to be the sacrifice to keep it open.
No idea if all of Spain, UK and Gibraltar being in the EEA would prevent this?

 

[northwichcat]

Technically, there's nothing stopping the UK giving Gibraltar its independence (eg Malta) although I don't think there's any appetite for that there or here.
But there will almost certainly be some kind of toll, at or near the border, should the UK leave the EU; which may have to be the sacrifice to keep it open.
No idea if all of Spain, UK and Gibraltar being in the EEA would prevent this?

I think Spanish politicians in the Basque and Catalan areas would welcome an independent Gibraltar. However, the ones in Madrid wouldn't be so keen.

 

[Howardh]

I think Spanish politicians in the Basque and Catalan areas would welcome an independent Gibraltar. However, the ones in Madrid wouldn't be so keen.

It would be an, er, interesting development!

 

[Harbornite]

Anyone watching the #ITVEURef debate?

 

[miami]

Correct it isn't part of the EU but as it's UK overseas territory and the UK is part of the EU it means the people who live in Spain and work in Gibraltar can get through the border crossing with just their Spanish national ID card. Imagine if they had to show a passport and get it stamped every day - they'd need new passports every month!

You don't have to stamp a passport - I didn't get a stamp last time I went to Hong Kong for example, or Israel (at most locations).

Wouldn't Spain then want to reject an independent Scotland as a new EU country?

Wouldn't Spain stop Scotland as it doesn't want to encourage a Catalan breakaway state? Unless Scotland could argue that they are simply filling the UK's seat like Russia took the USSRs seat in the UN. Perhaps we could have a "government in exile" in Scotland while the UKIPpers ravage the country.

 

[zuriblue]

This is a bit low

Remain campaigners have accused their Leave opponents of potentially "misleading" people wanting to register online to vote in the EU referendum.
They say a Vote Leave website appears to offer people the chance to register but in fact only records their details for the Vote Leave campaign.

http://www.bbc.com/news/36462432

I've heard of stunts like this getting pulled in the States, and I've also heard of the perpetrators ending up in court or even prison.

 

[miami]

This is a bit low

http://www.bbc.com/news/36462432

I've heard of stunts like this getting pulled in the States, and I've also heard of the perpetrators ending up in court or even prison.

Just shows how much you should trust vote leave I guess. But surely the only people that would affect are those going to the vote leave campaign.

Search google for "register to vote" and you get https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote, then https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/register-to-vote/, then a bunch of news stories, then www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register-to-vote. Perhaps google have banned them?

 

[zuriblue]

Just shows how much you should trust vote leave I guess. But surely the only people that would affect are those going to the vote leave campaign.

Search google for "register to vote" and you get https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote, then https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/register-to-vote/, then a bunch of news stories, then www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/register-to-vote. Perhaps google have banned them?

Apparently the site's been taken down. According to the Beeb story the original site was a paid result (where you pay to get up ranked) and was above the Gov.uk one.

 

[tony_mac]

This is a bit low
http://www.bbc.com/news/36462432

I've heard of stunts like this getting pulled in the States, and I've also heard of the perpetrators ending up in court or even prison.

Surely that would mislead their own supporters into thinking they have registered to vote, when they actually haven't? That would be quite a dumb thing to do!

 

[miami]

Surely that would mislead their own supporters into thinking they have registered to vote, when they actually haven't? That would be quite a dumb thing to do!

Not if it was the first result. Google is usually on top of these scam sites - search for ESTA and the first result is https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/, no adverts for sites like https://www.esta-registration.dont.use.this.co.uk/ which costs over 3 times the price.

 

[Gutfright]

Anyone watching the #ITVEURef debate?

I watched it. Didn't think Farage did all that well. Cameron stayed consistently on-message, that message being that if you vote for Brexit your children will die penniless on the streets.

The questions asked were reasonably incisive, I guess, with the notable exception of one rather thick shouty woman who asked Mr Farage if he was being racist against black Britons by trying to restrict the number of white Europeans who enter the country. Farage tried to respond but shouty idiot woman seemed determined not to let him speak.

I just found it disappointing, because there is maybe a question to be asked about whether Farage's rhetoric is too divisive. It would have been nice if ITV could have found someone to ask the question who was not a complete moron.

 

[Harbornite]

I watched it. Didn't think Farage did all that well. Cameron stayed consistently on-message, that message being that if you.vote for Brexit your children will die penniless on the streets.

The questions asked were reasonably incisive, I guess, with the notable exception of one rather thick shouty woman who asked Mr Farage if he was being racist against black Britons by trying to restrict the number of white Europeans who enter the country. Farage tried to respond but shouty idiot woman seemed determined not to let him speak.

I just found it disappointing, because there is maybe a question to be asked about whether Farage's rhetoric is too divisive. It would have been nice if ITV could have found someone to ask the question who was not a complete moron.

He did get quite a bit of stick, these debates are never up to scratch IMO. I thihk Cameron came out of it quite well.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I watched it. Didn't think Farage did all that well. Cameron stayed consistently on-message, that message being that if you.vote for Brexit your children will die penniless on the streets.

Cameron was very focused, basically turning every answer into - as you say - the economy. I was a bit disappointed - I would have liked to hear him say more about the UK being a force for good in the World within the EU, but I guess he's figured that the economy (vs immigration) is where all the wavering votes are, so he's being true-to-Conservative-form in hammering one single message. The way he was talking, I did get quite a sense that he was really out fighting for what he believed in. I could almost admire the guy (if my brain didn't keep reminding me of all the harm he's done to public services, the country, less well off people, etc. etc. while he's been PM). Feels very odd to be watching and being on the same side as David Cameron and therefore being forced to mentally cheer him on. Not sure if it's an experience I want to repeat too often

The questions asked were reasonably incisive, I guess, with the notable exception of one rather thick shouty woman who asked Mr Farage if he was being racist against black Britons by trying to restrict the number of white Europeans who enter the country. Farage tried to respond but shouty idiot woman seemed determined not to let him speak.

I found that question odd because the woman (who btw I do not think was 'thick') was specifically accusing Nigel Farage of stirring up racism against blacks. Much as I dislike Farage, I can't recall him ever doing that. I think he has on many occasions made divisive comments that appear to be attempts to stir up racism against Eastern Europeans, which is just as bad, but is not the same thing. So I'm slightly surprised that particular question was allowed through.

 

[Gutfright]

He did get quite a bit of stick, these debates are never up to scratch IMO. I thihk Cameron came out of it quite well.

Looking back to the last General Election and the Scottish indyref, there seems to be no correlation between doing well at televised debates and getting the results you want from the voters.

Which is just as well for us Brexiteers, really, as Cameron did actually do quite well.

 

[Johnuk123]

The questions asked were reasonably incisive, I guess, with the notable exception of one rather thick shouty woman who asked Mr Farage if he was being racist against black Britons by trying to restrict the number of white Europeans who enter the country. Farage tried to respond but shouty idiot woman seemed determined not to let him speak.

That offensive shouting woman who wouldn't allow Farage a chance to answer was Imriel Morgan who writes for the Huffington Post and is a professional left wing "diversity" blogger and "activist"
@ImiMorgan
"Freelance Content Marketer, Growth Hacker, Diversity Advocate, Co-Founder @ShoutOutLdn, Co-host @MelaninMille. 'I don't argue to convert, I argue to be heard.'"

A "Growth Hacker" - In other words she doesn't work.

She wasn't just some member of the public who had been asked to submit a question she had been placed there for that one question right in the middle of the front row.
Why didn't ITV mention the fact she wasn't just an ordinary member of the public, they need to answer that.

 

[Aldaniti]

That offensive woman who wouldn't allow Farage a chance to answer was Imriel Morgan who writes for the Huffington Post and is a professional left wing "diversity" blogger and racism "activist"
She wasn't just some member of the public who had been asked to submit a question she had been placed there for that one question right in the middle of the front row.

Awful woman. Even some of her fellow audience members told her to let him speak. My favourite however was the bloke advocating Remain whose only concern seemed to be whether there would be enough immigrant labour to wipe his backside in retirement. Whatever their individual beliefs, I'd say Farage came across as a little more genuine than Cameron.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Given Farage was doing something similar when moaning about alternative medicines to an audience member himself, one might almost think that this is yet another instance of the right-wing victimising itself because it doesn't actually have an argument.

 

[northwichcat]

You don't have to stamp a passport - I didn't get a stamp last time I went to Hong Kong for example, or Israel (at most locations).

Spain would be unlikely to play nice over Gibraltar if the UK leaves the EU. If Spain tries to force a border crossing fee for the non-Spanish using the border, the UK could insist passports must be presented and must be stamped on entering Gibraltar, unless they are issued in the UK or Gibraltar. That would be very inconvenient to some of the Spanish but would seem entirely reasonable for the UK to implement.

According to the Foreign Office website Israel requires you to have a landing card or a stamped passport to prove you've entered the country legally, while Hong Kong has special status due to it being a former British territory.

 

[Howardh]

Wouldn't Spain stop Scotland as it doesn't want to encourage a Catalan breakaway state? Unless Scotland could argue that they are simply filling the UK's seat like Russia took the USSRs seat in the UN. Perhaps we could have a "government in exile" in Scotland while the UKIPpers ravage the country.

Gibraltar woudn't be an issue for an independent Scotland as they wouldn't...well, what's the best term, "own"? Gibraltar so Spain could relax.

However a successful independent Scotland (another debate!) would worry Spain as it looks within it's own borders.

 

[Antman]

Awful woman. Even some of her fellow audience members told her to let him speak. My favourite however was the bloke advocating Remain whose only concern seemed to be whether there would be enough immigrant labour to wipe his backside in retirement. Whatever their individual beliefs, I'd say Farage came across as a little more genuine than Cameron.

Exactly, Mr Farage tells it like it is unlike Dishonest Dave!

 

[Railops]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/its-not-just-the-brits-euroscepticism-on-the-rise-all-across-eur/

Anti-Brussels sentiment has risen sharply all across Europe over the past year thanks to a toxic combination of economic stagnation and the mismanagement of the migrant crisis, a new Europe-wide opinion poll has shown.

The Pew Research Centre survey found that rising disenchantment with the EU is not confined to the UK, with Greece, France and Spain also having a majority with an unfavourable view of Europe.

The Eu is just going from bad to worse in the residents opinions.

 

[Antman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/its-not-just-the-brits-euroscepticism-on-the-rise-all-across-eur/



The Eu is just going from bad to worse in the residents opinions.

Doesn't surprise me at all, I've recently heard both French and Germans expressing similar views.

 

[EM2]

Exactly, Mr Farage tells it like it is unlike Dishonest Dave!

Farage tells it like he thinks it is.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Farage tells it like he thinks it is.

Farage tells it like he wishes it were.