Should We Leave the EU?

[Steveman]

Doesn't matter if nobody wants to watch some obscure French film, you'll get it anyway.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'm sure that the interests of millionaire porn mogul Dirty Des (owner of the Express) are exactly the same as the average man - absolutely no vested interests whatsoever

Just a quick question; do you have a problem with porn?

 

[miami]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-netflix-quotas-idUSKCN0YA2FO



This is exactly the sort of ridiculous meddling that winds people up.

If that's the case, then the people's elected representatives in parliament will not pass the law, and neither will the government representatives that make up the council.

Or have I misunderstood how directives and regulations are passed in the EU - as far as I can tell it's all very democratic. Please could someone explain how something gets passed while bypassing Parliament and the council?

 

[Barn]

If that's the case, then the people's elected representatives in parliament will not pass the law, and neither will the government representatives that make up the council.

Or have I misunderstood how directives and regulations are passed in the EU - as far as I can tell it's all very democratic. Please could someone explain how something gets passed while bypassing Parliament and the council?

Perhaps the UK (which naturally has a fondness for English-language content from around the world) might get outvoted in both the Parliament and the Council by countries who might naturally consume a large amount of European content anyway, or who have more protectionist tendencies, or who wish to stem the rise of American culture, etc?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Just a quick question; do you have a problem with porn?

No - it's the hypocrisy I have a problem with.
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Perhaps the UK (which naturally has a fondness for English-language content from around the world) might get outvoted in both the Parliament and the Council by countries who might naturally consume a large amount of European content anyway, or who have more protectionist tendencies, or who wish to stem the rise of American culture, etc?

The commission is comprised of a large delegation from the UK who have influence over these matters. The EU is not comprised solely of MEPs and done entirely on majoritarian votes.

 

[Barn]

The commission is comprised of a large delegation from the UK who have influence over these matters. The EU is not comprised solely of MEPs and done entirely on majoritarian votes.

One of your strangest contributions so far. The commission is 3.8% British

 

[AM9]

One of your strangest contributions so far. The commission is 3.8% British

Slight error there, actually it is 3.57%.

 

[Barn]

Slight error there, actually it is 3.57%.

You're talking commissioners, I'm talking officers. Either way, it doesn't tell a great story for British influence.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One of your strangest contributions so far. The commission is 3.8% British

You know exactly what was meant by the statement. Intentionally misinterpreting it does you no favours.

 

[Barn]

You know exactly what was meant by the statement. Intentionally misinterpreting it does you no favours.

I'm not sure I do know what you meant, actually. In any event, we were both responding to paulweaver who was asking how these silly decisions get made. The answer is that at most we have 'influence', but we have no power to prevent decisions, even if they may adversely affect the UK far more than other nations, and even if there is no sensible reason why they must be made on a Europe-wide basis.

 

[radamfi]

Has the Leave team yet addressed the question whether UK citizens wanting to live and work in the EU would be affected by Brexit?

 

[furnessvale]

Has the Leave team yet addressed the question whether UK citizens wanting to live and work in the EU would be affected by Brexit?

AIUI, we have no intention of throwing out all the EU citizens already in the UK.

However, if the EU throws out UK citizens, I believe the net result, as we retaliate, will be more jobs, houses and school places for returning UK citizens and their families.

 

[TheKnightWho]

AIUI, we have no intention of throwing out all the EU citizens already in the UK.

However, if the EU throws out UK citizens, I believe the net result, as we retaliate, will be more jobs, houses and school places for returning UK citizens and their families.

Several problems with this:

1) "more jobs" makes literally no sense, since the number of jobs in a country scales with the number of people in it.

2) "more houses" - great, until you look at the demographics. Do you think the generally middle-aged and older people living in the EU are likely to want to live in the 5 person houseshares that the generally younger EU citizens in the UK are accustomed to living in? No.

3) "more school places" - children tend to be citizens of this country, since they are usually second generation immigrants.

 

[AM9]

AIUI, we have no intention of throwing out all the EU citizens already in the UK.

However, if the EU throws out UK citizens, I believe the net result, as we retaliate, will be more jobs, houses and school places for returning UK citizens and their families.

As most of the UK ex-pats in EU member countries are probably 'remain' leaning, I doubt that they would want to return to the island state of England with all that the succeeding administration vows to change.

 

[radamfi]

However, if the EU throws out UK citizens, I believe the net result, as we retaliate, will be more jobs, houses and school places for returning UK citizens and their families.

So it might be harder for UK citizens to move to the EU *in the future* under Brexit?

 

[furnessvale]

So it might be harder for UK citizens to move to the EU *in the future* under Brexit?

Possibly. Certainly Junckers was issuing threats yesterday but I doubt any such closing of doors will be done by the UK.

 

[radamfi]

Possibly. Certainly Junckers was issuing threats yesterday but I doubt any such closing of doors will be done by the UK.

So you don't think the UK will stop freedom of movement from the EU?

 

[furnessvale]

So you don't think the UK will stop freedom of movement from the EU?

Totally unrestricted movement, both ways, will no doubt cease, but I have no reason to believe that movement will not continue with the EU, just as movement occurs between the UK and virtually every other country in the world.

 

[radamfi]

Totally unrestricted movement, both ways, will no doubt cease, but I have no reason to believe that movement will not continue with the EU, just as movement occurs between the UK and virtually every other country in the world.

Eh? You just said Britain would not close doors.

 

[furnessvale]

Eh? You just said Britain would not close doors.

Yes! I was quite happily letting you lead me along a path of your choosing, where migration is characterised by remainers as all or nothing, that UK citizens wishing to go on holiday in the EU etc will require visas and other such nonsense.

As we both know, the truth will lay somewhere between the totally unlimited access demanded by the EU for its citizens, including such countries as Turkey in the near future, and the characterisation of a totally sealed UK border which no-one passes.

 

[radamfi]

Yes! I was quite happily letting you lead me along a path of your choosing, where migration is characterised by remainers as all or nothing, that UK citizens wishing to go on holiday in the EU etc will require visas and other such nonsense.

As we both know, the truth will lay somewhere between the totally unlimited access demanded by the EU for its citizens, including such countries as Turkey in the near future, and the characterisation of a totally sealed UK border which no-one passes.

Travelling between European countries is and should always be visa-free. That's not up for debate. But if UK citizens can no longer live in better European countries as easily as we do now, that is an incredibly horrible scenario. I have seen nothing from the Leave camp to reassure me that our freedom to live and work across Europe would nor be under threat under Brexit.

 

[furnessvale]

Travelling between European countries is and should always be visa-free. That's not up for debate. But if UK citizens can no longer live in better European countries as easily as we do now, that is an incredibly horrible scenario. I have seen nothing from the Leave camp to reassure me that our freedom to live and work across Europe would nor be under threat under Brexit.

If that is what you want from Europe then there is nothing any Brexiter could say to you to change your mind.

For many Brexiters the fact that the opposite movement is also true, is one of the factors to be weighed in the equation.

 

[miami]

Several problems with this:

1) "more jobs" makes literally no sense, since the number of jobs in a country scales with the number of people in it.

Well assuming that we kick out 2 million mostly tax paying EU immigrants and get 2 million mostly retired pensioners who won't be working, then the number of jobs required will probably increase (especially in the health and care industries), and the number of people willing and/or able to do the jobs will decrease, meaning pay rises all round.

Not sure how we'll pay for it though.

2) "more houses" - great, until you look at the demographics. Do you think the generally middle-aged and older people living in the EU are likely to want to live in the 5 person houseshares that the generally younger EU citizens in the UK are accustomed to living in? No.

Which means higher house prices, which benefit old people at the expense of young people. Which explains why old people want to vote no.

3) "more school places" - children tend to be citizens of this country, since they are usually second generation immigrants.

Yes, perhaps the parents will be kicked out but the children who were born here will be allowed to stay?
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As most of the UK ex-pats in EU member countries are probably 'remain' leaning

Yes, a shame that WW2 veterans aren't allowed to vote.

I doubt that they would want to return to the island state of England with all that the succeeding administration vows to change.

I wonder if EU countries will offer asylum to their residents.

 

[northwichcat]

joined by a LibDem whose left-of-centre principles were so strong that he sold off the Royal Mail to spivs and speculators

He still has a better idea of what's going in the real world than Osborne. Osborne yesterday said house prices will fall if we leave the EU. Cable responded saying many young people want house prices to fall so a comment like that will aid the leave campaign especially as winning over the under 35s is considered crucial for remain.
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AIUI, we have no intention of throwing out all the EU citizens already in the UK.

However, if the EU throws out UK citizens, I believe the net result, as we retaliate, will be more jobs, houses and school places for returning UK citizens and their families.

I know one Brit who works as an English teacher in Italy. At present being British must have given her an advantage over someone from Australia, New Zealand, the US or Canada in getting that job but if we leave then that advantage is lost, yet someone from Ireland would retain an advantage over other countries.

 

[deltic]

Both Leave and Remain have such diverse political views in their camps that many of the arguments are inconsistent and downright confusing for the electorate.

Members of the leave campaign include people who want a) no immigration from anywhere b) immigration on a point system based on skills c) greater controls on those wanting to come in from the EU and relaxed immigration controls from non-EU countries d) far more relaxed immigration controls in relation to refugees. All are possible under Brexit but not all at the same time.

The feeling I have is that some in the Leave campaign are trying to run a general election campaign stating these are the policies that will be introduced on Brexit while in reality they are not the government that can actually implement those policies.

The Tories are rapidly tearing themselves apart - Labour seem to have limited interest in the campaign and I can see many supporters voting leave just to kick the Tories, the SNP also seem quiet at the moment.

 

[Barn]

The feeling I have is that some in the Leave campaign are trying to run a general election campaign stating these are the policies that will be introduced on Brexit while in reality they are not the government that can actually implement those policies.

I agree with that, but in fairness in the early campaign there were lots of Bremainers calling on Brexiters to spell out what would happen after a Brexit. Some Brexiters have fallen into that trap.

 

[Aldaniti]

He still has a better idea of what's going in the real world than Osborne. Osborne yesterday said house prices will fall if we leave the EU. Cable responded saying many young people want house prices to fall so a comment like that will aid the leave campaign especially as winning over the under 35s is considered crucial for remain.

Fair point about Vince Cable. George Osborne is a Conservative Chancellor whose policies have largely resulted in a significant rise in the national debt since election in 2010 - so he doesn't impress me. I own my own property and have paid off my mortgage, but my house is for living in - not trying to make money - and if there's a market correction as a result of leaving the EU I too think that it could be a good thing. I'm not sure it will happen, but it could well be one of those short term pain, long term gain situations, who knows.

 

[miami]

Can anyone explain the thinking behind today's bold faced lie from brexit that the EU can enlarge without agreement from every eu member government?

 

[richw]

Can anyone explain the thinking behind today's bold faced lie from brexit that the EU can enlarge without agreement from every eu member government?

My understanding is it needs a majority, not a unanimous decision, making the Brexit comment correct.

I am fed up of the "this might happen" comments. I want to know "this will happen".
At the moment there is still insufficient facts available to vote.

 

[ainsworth74]

My understanding is it needs a majority, not a unanimous decision, making the Brexit comment correct.

Nope. One country can block another acceding to the EU. The French did it to us in the 1960s. It was also an argument used during the Scottish Independence Referendum in relation to whether or not Spain would vote against Scotland acceding to the EU to send a message to Catalonia.

So if the UK Government decides it doesn't want Turkey joining the UK Government can block Turkey from joining.