Should We Leave the EU?

[yorksrob]

I don't really understand how. If the argument by Brexit is that we should forge stronger alliances and connections with Anglophone nations instead of the EU, it makes sense for him to cast some truth and feasibility on the matter. It's not like he got involved with no prompt.

Well, we've certainty been a useful Trojan horse in bringing 'l'anglosaxisme' to the EU, so it's perhaps not surprising that the American Establishment want us in.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well, we've certainty been a useful Trojan horse in bringing 'l'anglosaxisme' to the EU, so it's perhaps not surprising that the American Establishment want us in.

Right, but that's only a bad thing if we assume America's interests differ greatly from our own.

 

[yorksrob]

Right, but that's only a bad thing if we assume America's interests differ greatly from our own.

Indeed, but given I'm not convinced that Establishment America's interests coincide with their own populations (and neither, seemingly, does a very large proportion of their electorate) I'm not convinced that they don't.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Indeed, but given I'm not convinced that Establishment America's interests coincide with their own populations (and neither, seemingly, does a very large proportion of their electorate) I'm not convinced that they don't.

Is that really true? I think there's a lot of misinformation spread around in America (and here), but the largest changes of the Obama presidency by-and-large have popular support. There's just vociferous objection from certain circles, with large financial backing.

 

[yorksrob]

Is that really true? I think there's a lot of misinformation spread around in America (and here), but the largest changes of the Obama presidency by-and-large have popular support. There's just vociferous objection from certain circles, with large financial backing.

Well, I don't recall a set of primaries in which out of centre candidates have fared so well. And given the stagnation of wages from before the 2008 financial crisis, not to mention generally lousy working conditions (Americans hardly seem to get any annual leave) it's not surprising that many are sceptical of the economic free for all.

 

[Western Lord]

Whatever your position on the EU debate, Obama's intervention was laughable. The idea that the US would put the UK to the back of the queue for trade deals (behind, say, Sao Tome and Principe) is absurd, particularly when we are the fifth largest economy in the world, a nuclear power, a permanent member of the UN Security Council and have many important US military bases on our territory both at home and overseas. Giving notice for them to quit those bases would bring them to the table pronto.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Whatever your position on the EU debate, Obama's intervention was laughable. The idea that the US would put the UK to the back of the queue for trade deals (behind, say, Sao Tome and Principe) is absurd, particularly when we are the fifth largest economy in the world, a nuclear power, a permanent member of the UN Security Council and have many important US military bases on our territory both at home and overseas. Giving notice for them to quit those bases would bring them to the table pronto.

The US is in the process of closing bases around the world, including in the UK. I think you're vastly overestimating what we bring to the table for the US to be honest.

I'm a bit sick of this attitude that we can somehow bully or coerce countries (or groups of countries) many times the size of us economically just because we're the 5th largest economy in the world (which is misleading anyway, since that's nominal GDP).

 

[Western Lord]

The US is in the process of closing bases around the world, including in the UK. I think you're vastly overestimating what we bring to the table for the US to be honest.

I'm a bit sick of this attitude that we can somehow bully or coerce countries (or groups of countries) many times the size of us economically just because we're the 5th largest economy in the world (which is misleading anyway, since that's nominal GDP).

I am sure that the Chagos islanders would be delighted if they were closing Diego Garcia, but don't hold your breath.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I am sure that the Chagos islanders would be delighted if they were closing Diego Garcia, but don't hold your breath.

You think that is enough to bring the US to the table? It really does amaze me how much people overestimate Britain's importance sometimes.

 

[deltic]

The whole of the liberalisation of postal and rail services, which I've mentioned on this thread on numerous occasions.

liberalisation of postal and rail services were pushed for by UK governments - it would be wrong to say they were imposed upon the UK - we would have implemented them whether within or without the EU

 

[Western Lord]

You think that is enough to bring the US to the table? It really does amaze me how much people overestimate Britain's importance sometimes.

What would bring the US to the table is the desire of US companies to do business in a large, affluent market. I repeat that to talk of us being at the back of the queue is absurd. Real world economics would soon displace political posturing.

 

[Altfish]

What would bring the US to the table is the desire of US companies to do business in a large, affluent market. I repeat that to talk of us being at the back of the queue is absurd. Real world economics would soon displace political posturing.

I think you are taking the "back of the queue" quote too literally. What he means is that if there are deals to be done with the major nations and the EU, the UK will not be a priority - which is starkly contrary to what the Brexit people are screaming.

 

[deltic]

What would bring the US to the table is the desire of US companies to do business in a large, affluent market. I repeat that to talk of us being at the back of the queue is absurd. Real world economics would soon displace political posturing.

The UK is worth less than 3% of US export market - its not a great priority for them while we would not go to the end of the queue we would be stuck behind much larger multi-lateral trade agreements the US is trying to agree.

 

[yorksrob]

liberalisation of postal and rail services were pushed for by UK governments - it would be wrong to say they were imposed upon the UK - we would have implemented them whether within or without the EU

Indeed. I'm afraid market liberals of the Tory party have been in cahoots with the market liberals of the commission for many years with labour and the liberals not much different. However, these mistakes become infinitely more difficult to correct when they are enshrined at international level.
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liberalisation of postal and rail services were pushed for by UK governments - it would be wrong to say they were imposed upon the UK - we would have implemented them whether within or without the EU

The UK is worth less than 3% of US export market - its not a great priority for them while we would not go to the end of the queue we would be stuck behind much larger multi-lateral trade agreements the US is trying to agree.

I'm not convinced that the 'economies of scale' these great treaties such as TTIP are supposed to bring will necessarily work in the favour of British working people anyway. Further disposal of our companies, assets and jobs abroad seem likely.

 

[Barn]

You think that is enough to bring the US to the table? It really does amaze me how much people overestimate Britain's importance sometimes.

I know self-deprecation is a trait of our nationality, but I think we compare pretty favourably with other countries with whom the US has bilateral deals:

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

 

[gordonthemoron]

I know self-deprecation is a trait of our nationality, but I think we compare pretty favourably with other countries with whom the US has bilateral deals:

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements

on the other hand, I can't see anyone rushing to do a deal with a bunch of numpties

 

[Antman]

You think that is enough to bring the US to the table? It really does amaze me how much people overestimate Britain's importance sometimes.

The amount of postings you've made on this section amazes me:roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

The amount of postings you've made on this section amazes me:roll:

When you're out of arguments, attack the poster Am I sensing bitterness because your side is losing?

 

[miami]

When you're out of arguments, attack the poster Am I sensing bitterness because your side is losing?

Dangerous thinking. While floating voters may lean "stay" in the end, the anti-europe media will be drumming up their support and I suspect the turnout of "leave" voters will be higher than the turnout of "stay" voters.

 

[NoMorePacers]

When will all the leaders of both organisations realise they're just comic idiots...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Dangerous thinking. While floating voters may lean "stay" in the end, the anti-europe media will be drumming up their support and I suspect the turnout of "leave" voters will be higher than the turnout of "stay" voters.

I was being flippant, but yes - we shouldn't be complacent.

 

[Antman]

Dangerous thinking. While floating voters may lean "stay" in the end, the anti-europe media will be drumming up their support and I suspect the turnout of "leave" voters will be higher than the turnout of "stay" voters.

The anti Europe media? It's called reflecting public opinion :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If we chose to leave the EU, would that guarantee that we would not be allowed to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest...

 

[TheKnightWho]

The anti Europe media? It's called reflecting public opinion :roll:

That public opinion that is consistently less than 50% in the polls? Almost like the media feels they have more influence if we leave or something...

But of course, I'm sure you think polls are wrong because it suits you

 

[furnessvale]

If we chose to leave the EU, would that guarantee that we would not be allowed to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest...

That is one argument the inners are not going to deploy or we would be out like a shot!

 

[miami]

If we chose to leave the EU, would that guarantee that we would not be allowed to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest...

When Wogan retired it went downhill. Actually after Lordi's performance nothing would ever be the same again.

Actually https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJgszpNj7dY always sticks in my head.

 

[zuriblue]

The anti Europe media? It's called reflecting public opinion :roll:

No, it's called reflecting the opinion of their proprietors. Or, as Frankie Boyle put it

It’s worth remembering that in the press, ‘public opinion’ is often used interchangeably with ‘media opinion’, as if the public was somehow much the same as a group of radically rightwing billionaire sociopaths.

 

[Antman]

That public opinion that is consistently less than 50% in the polls? Almost like the media feels they have more influence if we leave or something...

But of course, I'm sure you think polls are wrong because it suits you

Oh yes and of course the polls are never wrong are they?:roll:

 

[miami]

Oh yes and of course the polls are never wrong are they?:roll:

The 2015 polls were off by about 3 percentage points.

 

[deltic]

The 2015 polls were off by about 3 percentage points.

which is within their standard margin of error